Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by james22)
    Why should they be? Is there a 50/50 chance of there being a purple hippo on mars?

    The probability is certainly not 50% either, as there are 10,000 Gods all of which are equally likely.
    Read post 266

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by arrow900)
    Read post 266

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Same argument can be applied to many other religions, so the probability Islam is correct cannot be 50%.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mightyfrog2_10)
    funny how you call yourself an "ex-Muslim" when you're the guy/girl who struggled to grasp the basic concept of God. You've clearly never believed in Allah or Prophet Muhammad as his final messenger, never prayed 5 times a day and never understood the Qur'an properly, probably never even fasted in your life too. So no you were never a Muslim as you so claim you were, so please just stop with your bullcrap.
    Stop jumping to conclusions. You can't honestly believe that for someone to consider themselves a Muslim they have to be orthodox.

    If you were a proper Muslim then why are you being so confrontational to someone during the holy month of Ramadan?

    Millions of people wouldn't even be Muslims if they weren't indoctrinated into practicing Islam by their parents, from a young age.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mightyfrog2_10)
    It's all complicated.
    (Original post by james22)
    If God can stop these people from going to hell, but does not, then he is not as merciful as I am (since I would do everything I could to stop people from going to hell).
    Hey guys! Interesting discussion :yep: Hi james22, long time no chat :wavey: (unless I've recently conversed with you thinking it to be 'james222' )

    It's a good point being put forward by james. I think it's better to quote it again:


    (Original post by james22)
    That is not relivant, the contradiction I described still exists. Saying he is almost most just does nothing to counter my point. I'll rewrite my argument incase you missunderstood.

    Not sending people to hell is more merciful than sending people to hell.
    Allah sends people to hell.
    I would never send anybody to hell.
    Therefore I am more merciful than Allah.
    This contradicts the Quran, which claims that Allah is most merciful.
    ^^Put very nicely and concisely. It is, however, an incomplete reflection of the matter. The subject of mercy and hell is one where we could discuss a fair bit. There are some things that I have previously written about it, so I'll start by adding them to this post - some bits, you may feel, do not share direct relevance to your point, but please have a read:

    (Original post by ash92:))
    We humans, by our very nature, need motivation to do something, we need some sort of beneficial outcome to do something. It's an important part of our cerebral network too, primarily the dopaminergic reward system in the prefrontal cortex, an integral part of our brain which is responsible for the pursuit of goals.

    And why do we need this concept of reward? Biologically, it helps us to survive, it makes us do things that are good for us.
    Thus, we have this to compensate for our imperfections in other aspects - such as dependance (upon others, upon sustenance, upon our physical or mental capabilities, etc.) and insufficiencies. It causes us to pursue our goals, our needs, without having to rely on others.
    Man has long used this to interact amongst ourselves - be it a reward for good interaction or cooperation (such as helping someone who helped you, or giving a child a reward for behaving well or completing a certain task), or a harmful act in return for harm (such as banning a child from a certain pleasure in return for bad behaviour).

    Likewise, in order to do good, to be selfless - even if at one's own detriment - we require some sort of motivation/reward/satisfaction. In order for us to follow the commands of God, we need to know the consequences of how we live our lives. We need to have something to motivate us, something immensely satisfying to strive for. We need to be informed that following God's instruction leads to our utter satisfaction and that there are consequences to going against the guidelines set by God. We need to have a sense of taqwa. This helps us with our imaan. Certainly, if mankind could figure out this integral part of our nature, God - our Creator, the All-Knowing - would surely know of this too.
    Now, if God just said "if you commit sin, you will go to hell - a very bad place/you won't like it there", how ineffective would this be? One would think "bad? I won't like it? Meh, I've seen bad, I've seen what I don't like, yet I still cope. I don't care, yolo ftw!". Now compare this with a more detailed description thereof, a more graphic telling of the place called Hell. Undoubtedly, the latter is much more effective, and indeed much more informative. Thus, we neither feel careless with regards to it, nor do we feel 'left in the lurch' or inadequately informed about it. We have no excuse at all to ignore it and we cannot deem it insignificant.
    So now you might ask "why could God, being as merciful as He is, not just dissolve hell and not punish anyone?".

    The reason being that God isn't only merciful. Rather, God has many different attributes, which include those of being Just and of reckoning. God's word is absolute. If God says something, He need not take it back, or 'lie'. Nullifying hell may comply with God being "ar- Raheem" [The Compassionately Merciful], but would it comply with the other attributes of God? Would it not make God's word inabsolute and untrue? Further to this, what motivation would man have to follow God's command? We'd be back at 'square: yolo ftw'. Why would we need to follow God's commands? Why not just pursue our pleasures, in whatever manner possible? Without doubt, mankind would not sacrifice immediate pleasures for the sake of getting nothing in return. Rather, where the pursuit of immediate pleasure is the only goal, mankind's self-discipline would waver.
    Now that's a discussion of the 'philosophy' (for lack of a better word) of hell and its significance to man. Of course, one could add to this but I didn't want it to get too lengthy.


    Turning more specifically to your argument now, I'll first place an analogy alongside your argument, trying to make it similar enough for a somewhat similarity which will convey the fault of the argument:

    james22:
    Not sending people to hell is more merciful than sending people to hell.
    Allah sends people to hell.
    I would never send anybody to hell.
    Therefore I am more merciful than Allah.

    comparative analogy:
    Giving someone a job is more merciful than not giving them a job, which would leave them to starve and struggle
    Mother Teresa din't give anyone a job (for argument's sake)
    Adolph Hitler gave many jobs under his government
    Therefore Adolph Hitler is more merciful than Mother Teresa,


    What is the obvious reaction of anyone reading this ludicrous progression? "What about the other stuff?! Why judge them according to what one was capable of doing and the other was not?!" Likewise, the same applies to your presented logic - although it is not ludicrous, per se.


    To go into this in a bit more depth, I merely need to discuss one of the attributes of Allah to invalidate the presented logic. I recently wrote the following in a post, so I may as well use it here:

    (Original post by ash92:))
    Allah is ar-Rahmaan - because His mercy upon us is innumerable, unaccountable, it cannot be reciprocated adequately by our giving thanks; He turns to us with mercy despite our shortcomings, He shows mercy to all things in some way or other; His mercy is both hidden and apparent, acknowledged and overlooked, by us humans, His mercy extends to that which we ask for and that which we received from Him without ever having to ask, that which we perceive as good and that which we perceive as bad for us, that which we understand to be beneficial for us and that which we eventually realise to be beneficial for us.
    Allah unequivocally describes Himself and His commands in the Quran, stating very clear the purpose for its revelation. What's more is that Allah says in a multitude of ways in the Quran what mankind is to do in order to avoid hell, and Allah says in many places that whatever the transgressions committed by man, if one repents and seeks His forgiveness, God is 'Oft-forgiving', 'Loving of mercy', 'veiling of sins that have been repented for', 'forbearing - despite being aware of man sinning and being disobedient'. 'the One who rewards immensely for inequivalent deeds, the One who rewards eternally for short-lived deeds' and so on. There are many, many more examples. Then we have Allah promising that He is always Just, that He never fails to reward good nor wrongs those who are good (where 'the trials of life' are not 'wrongs' but rather a means to a better end). An exceedingly merciful ayah from the Quran is as follows:

    إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَظْلِمُ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ ۖ وَإِن تَكُ حَسَنَةً يُضَاعِفْهَا وَيُؤْتِ مِن لَّدُنْهُ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا
    Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

    There are more examples of this aspect of Allah's mercy in the Quran, such as the parable of the grain (sunbulah).

    Furthermore, Allah makes it clear that He does not gain or lose anything from punishing us, rather it is only our loss, and a consequence of our rejection of God's instruction:

    مَّا يَفْعَلُ اللَّهُ بِعَذَابِكُمْ إِن شَكَرْتُمْ وَآمَنتُمْ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ شَاكِرًا عَلِيمًا
    Why should Allah punish you if you have thanked (Him) and have believed in Him. And Allah is Ever All-Appreciative (of good), All-Knowing.

    As my bit on ar-Rahmaan describes, we also find in the Quran the following:

    قَالَ عَذَابِي أُصِيبُ بِهِ مَنْ أَشَاءُ ۖ وَرَحْمَتِي وَسِعَتْ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ ۚ فَسَأَكْتُبُهَا لِلَّذِينَ يَتَّقُونَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَالَّذِينَ هُم بِآيَاتِنَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
    [ Allah ] said, "My punishment - I afflict with it whom I will, but My mercy encompasses all things." So I will decree it [especially] for those who fear Me and give zakah and those who believe in Our verses

    (meaning that the mercy of Allah is extended to all things, yet the punishment only to some; special [additional] mercy is bestowed upon those who follow His instruction)

    As alluded to before, these mercies can encompass a wide range of things - be they apparent or not, be they good in the short-term or good in the long-term, be they to give us happiness or to build our character through experience, be they asked for or given without us even having to ask (such as intelligence, perception, being saved from hazards, being capable of mobility, being able to adapt, having a family, being born to parents that raise you properly, and so on and so forth).


    During this discourse, we seem to have also covered your final statement "This contradicts the Quran, which claims that Allah is most merciful".


    Sorry if the response was a bit patchy/poorly organised - I can't sleep much with work :/
    Spoiler:
    Show
    at work today, someone saw me and greeted "you alright ash?". Embarrassingly, I mixed up "Yeh, I'm good, thanks" with "Yeh, I'm not bad, thanks". The result was "Yeh, I'm not good, thanks"

    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ridwan12)
    Circumcision is only expected for men not women..................

    Circumsion has existed long before Islam ever existed.
    how was this irrelevant to anything i've said? and to the other post, i wouldnt call that a debate either since her arguments completely disintegrated within like 2-3 replies. you're currently showing similar incompetence.

    (Original post by ridwan12)
    Please don't butt in if you don't know what your talking about.

    She said she was a medic and an ex-muslim so I wanted to see her opnion on this.

    Everthing in that video is factual. They used:
    • Quranic verses
    • Qoutes from well known scientist
    • Pictures


    Tell me how is this not factual.

    Instead of spouting your mouth about why don't you argue why it is incorrect or not factual.

    lol i've looked at this much more than you, a muslim, has done. dont assume things that i may know or may not know.
    yeah you're pretty simple. regarding your last sentence, i say instead of copying links you haven't properly looked into, why dont you argue why it is incorrect or not factual.

    the qurans strongest scientific miracle claim, embryology, is bs vague poetic verses construed as a scientific miracle. what you don't know is that those verses are much more suitable to the scientific knowledge already available in the time of the quran. in particular, greek embryology. aristotle wrote that bones develop then the flesh over it. infact if you actually see both cases of embryology in the quran and by aristotle, it becomes apparent that they all use the similar vocabulary in similar order: sperm, menstrual blood and flesh moulding over bones. thereby, it is very very unlikely one can credibly construe alaqah, nutfah or whatever to fit modern science and not aristotles greek science. but then you're also talking about your special leech like clot, based on the term 'alaqah', a leech like substance or a clinging substance - according to your modern day muslim apologists.

    but the term easily refers to a 'blood clot', especially according to most trusted translators including Yusuf Ali and Pickthall, and many others. Of course someone like you would just say they are wrong. the term blood clot, as mentioned before, also lucidly corresponds with science of the hellenic perioid, which was amply available to them at the time. further furthermore, arabian scholars around the time also explain embryology in a similair fashion to the quran and the hellenic period, that we form from sperm and menstrual blood, im not going to spend too much time and itemise them, in the age of information you go do that yourself, but some names (among others) such as al-tabari and al-razi support that alaqah refers to blood clot, not a clinging substance. so use your brain to see what term 'alaqah' is most likely to refer to. if this isn't enough, just google on your own time. plenty have debunked this claim much more extensively and thoroughly, that it is impossible to still stand by this claim without being an narrow minded stupid idiot.

    i thought the embryology claim is unbeatable too at first, arguably the qurans strongest miracle claim (the rest are weak), yet it completely falls apart with some common sense and being open-minded a little. but im sure you've already assumed im wrong before even reading what i've wrote, which is but a fraction of the argument debunking the embryology claim. in fact, it was this claim in particular that finally made me leave islam.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by brownsugar-xx)
    Oh but i was. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? :confused:

    So much for the atheists being the hostile ones on here, eh?
    lol ikr, pathetic.

    i havent seen a single muslim here give a solid argument, simply because faith is stronger than fact to these people. so you could kind of understand their confusion and anger.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BullViagra)
    how was this irrelevant to anything i've said? and to the other post, i wouldnt call that a debate either since her arguments completely disintegrated within like 2-3 replies. you're currently showing similar incompetence.



    lol i've looked at this much more than you, a muslim, has done. dont assume things that i may know or may not know.
    yeah you're pretty simple. regarding your last sentence, i say instead of copying links you haven't properly looked into, why dont you argue why it is incorrect or not factual.

    the qurans strongest scientific miracle claim, embryology, is bs vague poetic verses construed as a scientific miracle. what you don't know is that those verses are much more suitable to the scientific knowledge already available in the time of the quran. in particular, greek embryology. aristotle wrote that bones develop then the flesh over it. infact if you actually see both cases of embryology in the quran and by aristotle, it becomes apparent that they all use the similar vocabulary in similar order: sperm, menstrual blood and flesh moulding over bones. thereby, it is very very unlikely one can credibly construe alaqah, nutfah or whatever to fit modern science and not aristotles greek science. but then you're also talking about your special leech like clot, based on the term 'alaqah', a leech like substance or a clinging substance - according to your modern day muslim apologists.

    but the term easily refers to a 'blood clot', especially according to most trusted translators including Yusuf Ali and Pickthall, and many others. Of course someone like you would just say they are wrong. the term blood clot, as mentioned before, also lucidly corresponds with science of the hellenic perioid, which was amply available to them at the time. further furthermore, arabian scholars around the time also explain embryology in a similair fashion to the quran and the hellenic period, that we form from sperm and menstrual blood, im not going to spend too much time and itemise them, in the age of information you go do that yourself, but some names (among others) such as al-tabari and al-razi support that alaqah refers to blood clot, not a clinging substance. so use your brain to see what term 'alaqah' is most likely to refer to. if this isn't enough, just google on your own time. plenty have debunked this claim much more extensively and thoroughly, that it is impossible to still stand by this claim without being an narrow minded stupid idiot.

    i thought the embryology claim is unbeatable too at first, arguably the qurans strongest miracle claim (the rest are weak), yet it completely falls apart with some common sense and being open-minded a little. but im sure you've already assumed im wrong before even reading what i've wrote, which is but a fraction of the argument debunking the embryology claim. in fact, it was this claim in particular that finally made me leave islam.
    Ok sorry i didnt know you was a scientist?
    Please show me your degree? Phd, masters in embryology?
    I would love to see how your 'open mind' helped you discover that the qurans process of embryology is wrong. My 'open mind' allowed me to discover that youre an idiot!
    I Think id rather listen to DR KEITH L Moore than some retard on TSR
    For all those who havent watched, here is the video..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuAfmJ3LS4s

    im sure you would all rather listen to a true scientists views than a computer boy who spends his life on The student Room
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BullViagra)
    lol ikr, pathetic.

    i havent seen a single muslim here give a solid argument, simply because faith is stronger than fact to these people. so you could kind of understand their confusion and anger.
    what facts? lol how pathetic.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mightyfrog2_10)
    what facts? lol how pathetic.
    to a muslim, your faith is stronger than real world facts. you regard faith very highly.

    read that slowly and absorb it in properly. if you lack basic reading comprehension skills, then don't write.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BullViagra)
    .
    ^^I see you're resorting to personal insults already. I suggests you chill out you so called ex-Muslim, we know you're on the internet no need to act all hard behind a screen.

    Please provide these 'facts'. Go on hurry up.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mightyfrog2_10)
    ^^I see you're resorting to personal insults already. I suggests you chill out you so called ex-Muslim, we know you're on the internet no need to act all hard behind a screen.

    Please provide these 'facts'. Go on hurry up.
    you're clearly very offended.

    what's worse is that you still didnt understand what I said.

    maybe i'm speaking to you condescendingly for a reason, maybe you're being an idiot.

    like I said, read what's being written slowly and absorb it properly. if you keep acting like an idiot then I'll speak to you like one.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BullViagra)
    you're clearly very offended.

    what's worse is that you still didnt understand what I said.

    maybe i'm speaking to you condescendingly for a reason, maybe you're being an idiot.

    like I said, read what's being written slowly and absorb it properly. if you keep acting like an idiot then I'll speak to you like one.
    and you're clearly very offended as demonstrated by the tone of your posts.

    Oh i do understand, i'm still waiting for you to give me those 'facts'.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    the reason why you become an atheist was ealised that religion is irrational and has no evidence. really? in that case i feel sorry for you for not being well educated. think, reflect.

    most atheist are free thinkers, and i really hope that you are one who thinks a lot. because free thinkers love knowledge and i hope that the knowledge will bring you back to Islam. May God ease your path.

    verily,in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect (30:21)

    Btw now im not gonna scare you into thinking that youll go to hell bla3..
    just wanna share about something, ive always wondered isnt it unfair that nice non-muslim dont get to go to heaven?
    and then ie found the answer, ive read in a reliable source, nice non-muslims get to heaven, if they were not exposed to about islam. so if a non muslim was exposed to islam, but too ignorant to learn and think the reasoning behind it, then it's their loss.. it's your choice.
    my last advice..
    think.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mightyfrog2_10)
    and you're clearly very offended as demonstrated by the tone of your posts.

    Oh i do understand, i'm still waiting for you to give me those 'facts'.
    oh no, quite the contrary, im very amused that you still dont understand what ive said. i told you to read properly, you still can't do that.

    I meant facts as in worldly facts, the definition of fact. not individual facts. faith and fact are two different words no? I'm merely saying that religious faith is strong as, or stronger, than facts. For example, you will eventually die, thats a fact. Believing in the after life is faith. Yet a Muslim would regard both as equally true.

    Is that enough for you? (pretty embarrassing tbh)
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by arrow900)
    Why not?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    actually given that you are saying they are you must provide reason to believe it is equal. So go a head. Given that we are speaking about maths the proof is going to have to be a little more than your assertion.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BullViagra)
    I meant facts as in worldly facts, the definition of fact. not individual facts. faith and fact are two different words no? I'm merely saying that religious faith is strong as, or stronger, than facts. For example, you will eventually die, thats a fact. Believing in the after life is faith. Yet a Muslim would regard both as equally true.
    but the afterlife is a fact.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mightyfrog2_10)
    but the afterlife is a fact.
    Only in your head. :awesome:

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Straw-man666)
    Only in your head. :awesome:

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    no way.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BullViagra)
    lol ikr, pathetic.

    i havent seen a single muslim here give a solid argument, simply because faith is stronger than fact to these people. so you could kind of understand their confusion and anger.
    Honestly, i've lurked on a few of these threads and just looking at the arguments tires me out so i don't bother debating my choice with people because they're not gonna change and neither will I :dontknow:
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by garfeeled)
    actually given that you are saying they are you must provide reason to believe it is equal. So go a head. Given that we are speaking about maths the proof is going to have to be a little more than your assertion.
    Assume that there are as many possible beliefs as the human mind can create. To date, all such possibilities ( including Atheism) have no proof or disproof ( enlighten me if you have either of these).
    Since there is only one scenario that is true, from our perspective all such possibilities are equally likely to be true.

    Any such evidence that has been collected, so far, clearly has not lead to the conclusion that the universe created itself or else I'm sure such a theory would have ended this argument long ago.




    Posted from TSR Mobile
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Will you be richer or poorer than your parents?
    Useful resources
    AtCTs

    Ask the Community Team

    Got a question about the site content or our moderation? Ask here.

    Welcome Lounge

    Welcome Lounge

    We're a friendly bunch. Post here if you're new to TSR.

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.