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    (Original post by young_guns)
    In which case we are in total agreement, my apologies.
    Good! Bloody greens. If we get another conservative government because of them I'm going to kick off :mad:

    I was going to leave the country if that happened but then I realised that's basically just a more extreme version of saying you aren't going to vote, plus Canada and Australia are now even more crappy than the UK politically.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    As much as my disdain for fascism yes. We are no better.
    We are no better than the Nazis? Wow. Just wow.

    Are you a Holocaust denier?
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Good! Bloody greens. If we get another conservative government because of them I'm going to kick off :mad:

    I was going to leave the country if that happened but then I realised that's basically just a more extreme version of saying you aren't going to vote, plus Canada and Australia are now even more crappy than the UK politically.
    It would be a mistake to leave a democratic country merely because the wrong party is in power.

    It's far more important that people like you and I, people with solid social democratic or Fabian socialist values, stay and fight the good fight; vote and participate in party politics, persuade our friends and colleagues, do everything in our power to push the country towards the kind of society we'd like to see.

    Ultimately, if you are a democrat (small d) then you have to accept that electoral politics is not like the weather, it's not some force of nature. It is the direct outcome of millions of micro-decisions. We as citizens have a responsibility to try to influence as many of those micro-decisions as possible towards ones which will be positive, and also accept that we can't always have what we want because there are millions ofother citizens with an equal stake and say

    This is where I find the Greens exceptionally irritating; they seem to believe that unless the Labour Party agrees with every one of their policy preferences, it must be corrupt and evil, rather than accepting that the only way a centre-left party can cobble together a broad enough coalition of interests and electoral demographics to take power is by being a broad church, rather than an extremist organisation.

    That's even leaving aside the fact that tacking to the hard left would be a mistake in policy terms, as well as electoral terms.

    Edit: And I would just add, the Greens do have a rather dubious claim on being left-wing,given Citizen Income would deprive many of our most vulnerable fellow citizens of housing benefit and other provisions on which they live. 72 pounds a week is not enough to live on.
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    Yep they're complete lunatics. Fortunately I don't expect they'll do much more than split the labour vote in some places.
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    We are no better than the Nazis? Wow. Just wow.

    Are you a Holocaust denier?
    No I don't deny it happened and we can't let it happen again but I cannot honestly say we are better

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    (Original post by Aph)
    Now I'm not saying that I'd like to live in nazi Germany all im saying is that from a purely scientific objective standpoint no one society is better

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    You cannot study society scientifically. That's your mistake.

    You're probably one of those people who believes psychology, sociology and economics are real sciences.

    The fact is the society we live in is just subjectively better than the nazi regime.
    You could probably also say it's objectively better becaus else's people died/less people are suffering.

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    (Original post by Aph)
    No I don't deny it happened and we can't let it happen again but I cannot honestly say we are better

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    You can't see how our society is better than one that attempted to exterminate entire ethnic groups and started one of the most destructive wars in human history? I suggest your review your opinions.


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    (Original post by reallydontknow)
    You cannot study society scientifically. That's your mistake.

    You're probably one of those people who believes psychology, sociology and economics are real sciences.

    The fact is the society we live in is just subjectively better than the nazi regime.
    You could probably also say it's objectively better becaus else's people died/less people are suffering.

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    And that's my point. Because you can't you cant objectively say one society is better.

    Well why arent they? Responses can be mesured and predicted so id say psychology at least definitely is.

    Any one society will look upon another with distain. Thus no one society is superior as they all think they are.


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    (Original post by Aj12)
    You can't see how our society is better than one that attempted to exterminate entire ethnic groups and started one of the most destructive wars in human history? I suggest your review your opinions.


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    I guess now I know what real green party members are like.

    Wow.

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    (Original post by Aj12)
    You can't see how our society is better than one that attempted to exterminate entire ethnic groups and started one of the most destructive wars in human history? I suggest your review your opinions.


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    Look, honestly I personally prefer this society (but I prefer Scandinavia culture) but my opinions are clouded by the belifes my society has given to me thus I cannot objectively say we are better.

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    (Original post by Aph)
    And that's my point. Because you can't you cant objectively say one society is better.

    Well why arent they? Responses can be mesured and predicted so id say psychology at least definitely is.

    Any one society will look upon another with distain. Thus no one society is superior as they all think they are.


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    The fact is they aren't because they don't follow scientific principles.

    Let me guess you're going to study psychology at university. Oh and you want to change the world for the better. You are so naive.

    Psychology is not a science because people are not predictable, sure you may find some patterns but you cannot say that if you do something, I will invoke said response, you can only assume. Whereas with physics or chemistry or biology you make conclusions.

    Psychologists make their so called laws, assuming they know so much about humans, about the brain and how it works when really that's all ****. Everybody behaves differently, yes if you study a large group of people then you may find patterns but not everybody is the same, that's a fact.

    You know the half life of psychology as a subject is estimated to be 5 years, meaning the time it takes for half the knowledge the field to be proven wrong. So by the time you complete your degree, half what you've learnt in your first year is gonna be wrong.

    Social sciences are precisely that.they are all not sciences. There are 3 sciences. An argument can be made for maths, but in my opinion maths is above sciences.

    The hard sciences have claim on actual truth whereas the social sciences don't, they make assumptions and presumptions.
    None of the social sciences meet the five basic requirements to be a science, that is, clearly defined terminology, quantifiability, highly controlled experiments, reproducibility and lastly predictability and testability

    All this is getting off topic, there's a reason psychology is not a science, and it's only lame people who claim it to be so to gain more credibility for their otherwise pretty flimsy field.


    Anyway, back on topic. Yes any one society may claim another is worse. But if you were to get all societies now, almost all would agree that the nazi regime was terrible, the only people who disagree would probably be neo-nazis

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    (Original post by redferry)
    I'd just like to point out that peer reviewed science disputes your first point thoroughly.
    No, it doesn't. Stop taking the authors of the Spirit Level for their word when they say that, it simply isn't true. The vast majority of articles referenced by the Spirit Level have nothing to do with income inequality or barely talk about it.

    The idea that science is 100% behind the idea that inequality always makes societies worse is just wrong, don't peddle rubbish.
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    (Original post by reallydontknow)
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    The fact is they aren't because they don't follow scientific principles.

    Let me guess you're going to study psychology at university. Oh and you want to change the world for the better. You are so naive.

    Psychology is not a science because people are not predictable, sure you may find some patterns but you cannot say that if you do something, I will invoke said response, you can only assume. Whereas with physics or chemistry or biology you make conclusions.

    Psychologists make their so called laws, assuming they know so much about humans, about the brain and how it works when really that's all ****. Everybody behaves differently, yes if you study a large group of people then you may find patterns but not everybody is the same, that's a fact.

    You know the half life of psychology as a subject is estimated to be 5 years, meaning the time it takes for half the knowledge the field to be proven wrong. So by the time you complete your degree, half what you've learnt in your first year is gonna be wrong.

    Social sciences are precisely that.they are all not sciences. There are 3 sciences. An argument can be made for maths, but in my opinion maths is above sciences.

    The hard sciences have claim on actual truth whereas the social sciences don't, they make assumptions and presumptions.
    None of the social sciences meet the five basic requirements to be a science, that is, clearly defined terminology, quantifiability, highly controlled experiments, reproducibility and lastly predictability and testability

    All this is getting off topic, there's a reason psychology is not a science, and it's only lame people who claim it to be so to gain more credibility for their otherwise pretty flimsy field.


    Anyway, back on topic. Yes any one society may claim another is worse. But if you were to get all societies now, almost all would agree that the nazi regime was terrible, the only people who disagree would probably be neo-nazis

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    actually im going to study maths and physics at uni:hand: but the brain is best understood as a series of chemical reactions which makes it entirely predictable.

    Ok so if most people (or societies) agree then its fact? So the earth used to be flat then?



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    (Original post by Aph)
    actually im going to study maths and physics at uni:hand: but the brain is best understood as a series of chemical reactions which makes it entirely predictable.

    Ok so if most people (or societies) agree then its fact? So the earth used to be flat then?



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    No, you're not, you're studying Psychology and you're hoping to go to some university in wales or something, I forget it's name, it's crap anyway. I know you, whether you know me or not is very irrelevant Christian. Imagine you studying maths and physics with the grades you got.

    Thing is the brain can be manipulated by anybody, including yourself, many people study depression for so long yet they know nothing about it, the best way to deal with depression, in my opinion, is to force it out, you have to make your brain accept emotions are false, that they are entirely in your control and accept you are happy, then you are happy.

    No, if most people agree on something subjective then it is, generally right, if something is objective (like the earths shape) it doesn't matter what people think more what is fact.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Good! Bloody greens. If we get another conservative government because of them I'm going to kick off :mad:
    If labour get in and continue selling off the NHS I am going to kick off :mad:
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Look, honestly I personally prefer this society (but I prefer Scandinavia culture) but my opinions are clouded by the belifes my society has given to me thus I cannot objectively say we are better.

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    Ah wow, a self enlightened person who studies psychology and supports the greens, he has discovered what is wrong with this society and intends to fix it, he knows much more than everybody else and wants to share this knowledge.

    You are a rare breed. Oh wait, no, you're not.
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    (Original post by reallydontknow)
    No, you're not, you're studying Psychology and you're hoping to go to some university in wales or something, I forget it's name, it's crap anyway. I know you, whether you know me or not is very irrelevant Christian. Imagine you studying maths and physics with the grades you got.

    Thing is the brain can be manipulated by anybody, including yourself, many people study depression for so long yet they know nothing about it, the best way to deal with depression, in my opinion, is to force it out, you have to make your brain accept emotions are false, that they are entirely in your control and accept you are happy, then you are happy.

    No, if most people agree on something subjective then it is, generally right, if something is objective (like the earths shape) it doesn't matter what people think more what is fact.
    Who on earth are you. And I will be doing math :fyi:

    AKA victim blaming

    No that is mob mentality and is often wrong
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    .

    It's far more important that people like you and I, people with solid social democratic or Fabian socialist values, stay and fight the good fight; vote and participate in party politics, persuade our friends and colleagues, do everything in our power to push the country towards the kind of society we'd like to see.

    Ultimately, if you are a democrat (small d) then you have to accept that electoral politics is not like the weather, it's not some force of nature. It is the direct outcome of millions of micro-decisions. We as citizens have a responsibility to try to influence as many of those micro-decisions as possible towards ones which will be positive, and also accept that we can't always have what we want because there are millions ofother citizens with an equal stake and say

    This is where I find the Greens exceptionally irritating; they seem to believe that unless the Labour Party agrees with every one of their policy preferences, it must be corrupt and evil, rather than accepting that the only way a centre-left party can cobble together a broad enough coalition of interests and electoral demographics to take power is by being a broad church, rather than an extremist organisation.
    Then maybe Labour should start behaving like social democrats.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    If labour get in and continue selling off the NHS I am going to kick off :mad:
    They're exempting it from TTIP and have a policy to prioritise public bids so I doubt they will
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    No, it doesn't. Stop taking the authors of the Spirit Level for their word when they say that, it simply isn't true. The vast majority of articles referenced by the Spirit Level have nothing to do with income inequality or barely talk about it.

    The idea that science is 100% behind the idea that inequality always makes societies worse is just wrong, don't peddle rubbish.
    I have actually read the majority of the articles that book was based on you do realise?

    It's based on good data and rigorous analysis.
 
 
 
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