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'High quality' unis to increase tuition fees watch

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    (Original post by celloel)
    My parents have been in the 40% tax bracket for a matter of about two years and that is only through my dad's ****ing hard work (he works around 12 hours a day as he is a contractor in Aerospace). My sister has been in University for 3 years. Tell me again how my parents should have "saved up" for our education when they have a mortgage, debts from having to borrow to pay for food before they were as well off as they are now.

    Neither went to University, or even further education beyond GCSEs, because they couldn't afford to stay in education, my grandparents are factory workers and very much working class. My dad joined the air force in an apprenticeship - which is how he got into the Aerospace industry - because he grew up in an area known for its unemployment and poor education. I've had a job since I was 15 due to the work around my area in my dad's job being severely cut, so I could help to pay for the mortgage and debt we are in. Luckily he got a job back in September, but we were totally ****ed for months.

    It's only recently we've been this comfortable. But trust me, I know what it's like to have to ask your friend for money to pay for food, to have to work long hours to pay for your family's mortgage at 15 years old, or to help with debt repayments.

    It's people like you that bother me to no end. Just because our family is comfortable now doesn't mean **** - and it doesn't for a lot of people, too. Just because we got to a great position through my family's sheer ****ing hard work doesn't mean they had a great start out in their early 20s-30s. They never had enough money to save up for our future when they have debts that need to be paid - and debts that they had to have just to ****ing put a roof over my sister and I's head.

    Also, I never once said anyone should pay higher taxes to support my sister, did I? No. Don't put words in my mouth tyvm. I stated that it's a ridiculous system; that a girl, whose father has enough money to provide her with £400 a month because he owns huge amounts of assets should get the full maintenance grant simply because it's not in incomes.

    I fail to see why some people can live off of the benefit system and the back of other hardworking people all their ****ing lives, never bothering to get a job, and then their kids have the full amount to support them throughout university. It disgusts me. Just because my parents worked hard and are now in a good financial position doesn't mean we don't need help, dumbass.
    You're very much the exception to the rule and got unlucky, then. Cases like this are why I do believe in changing the system, it at the very least needs to be more adaptable. But the income assessment should have been based on the 13-14 tax year - if as you say your dad only got a job in September and was not in a good position before that, you should be getting a lot more, quite possibly the maximum. Are you sure you're claiming as much as you could be?

    The flip side of increasing support for families that don't need it is that everyone else has to pay one way or another, whether it's higher taxes, fewer public services or higher borrowing. We can't just magic the money out of the air. I accept yours does and if what you present is true you should be getting it anyway, but the vast majority of families with £50k incomes simply don't. 95% of the time it's a lack of planning or lack of priorities. I have sympathy with your situation. I don't have much sympathy with families that can't afford to support their child through uni because they "lack disposable income" when they've decided to take out a mortgate on a house bigger than they need with payments they can only just afford, or borrow to afford a nice car, or take out contracts for private medical or dental insurance.

    Most people getting the full amount in support come from hardworking families. Very often single parents who can't work more than part-time due to ridiculous childcare costs, or can't get a job at all because it isn't very realistic for a woman in her 40s with no formal qualifications and very limited work experience from decades ago who's just become single to somehow gain English and Maths qualifications and find somewhere to volunteer whilst raising three or four children on her own. It's not that our families aren't bothered, it's that very often there's no way our of the poverty trap.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    you should be getting a lot more, quite possibly the maximum. Are you sure you're claiming as much as you could be?
    As I mentioned my dad's been in the 40% tax bracket for roughly two years (that tax bracket starts at £31,000ish, which leads to roughly £24,000 take home pay, he's been at that since around January 2013 I believe. Can't be 100% certain) until his job ended, which was around mid May of this year. I'm not at University (hopefully will be), just my sister currently. The basis was on 2013-2014 tax year which was good in terms of my dad's income (happily), as was 2014-2015 tax year. 2015-2016 will be lower though. My sister is perfectly used to and fine with working and has never once complained at having to do so.

    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    The flip side of increasing support for families that don't need it is that everyone else has to pay one way or another, whether it's higher taxes, fewer public services or higher borrowing.
    I understand that, completely. Our country is already in debt. I just believe financial aid should be based on the American system. They look at current assets, debts, incomings after tax (whilst ours is pre-tax) and a whole load of other factors. Might make it more fair, to eliminate people like my sister's friend.

    [QUOTE=Saoirse:3;60520049 it isn't very realistic for a woman in her 40s with no formal qualifications and very limited work experience from decades ago who's just become single to somehow gain English and Maths qualifications [/QUOTE]
    I agree with you, I've seen this over and over again in my parent's relatives. My mum was able to do adult maths qualifications to get a job (I believe at night) whilst my dad looked after my sister and I - but if you're single, that's impossible unless you're able to pay childcare, like you said.

    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    It's not that our families aren't bothered, it's that very often there's no way our of the poverty trap.
    Again I agree with you here, actually. If my dad hadn't joined the forces we would not be in the position we have been for the past two years. It seems that it's the only way out of the poverty trap (my cousin, uncle, etc all were forced to do the same thing due to no work) which is incredibly wrong.
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    (Original post by celloel)
    As I mentioned my dad's been in the 40% tax bracket for roughly two years (that tax bracket starts at £31,000ish, which leads to roughly £24,000 take home pay, he's been at that since around January 2013 I believe. Can't be 100% certain) until his job ended, which was around mid May of this year. I'm not at University (hopefully will be), just my sister currently. The basis was on 2013-2014 tax year which was good in terms of my dad's income (happily), as was 2014-2015 tax year. 2015-2016 will be lower though. My sister is perfectly used to and fine with working and has never once complained at having to do so.


    I understand that, completely. Our country is already in debt. I just believe financial aid should be based on the American system. They look at current assets, debts, incomings after tax (whilst ours is pre-tax) and a whole load of other factors. Might make it more fair, to eliminate people like my sister's friend.


    I agree with you, I've seen this over and over again in my parent's relatives. My mum was able to do adult maths qualifications to get a job (I believe at night) whilst my dad looked after my sister and I - but if you're single, that's impossible unless you're able to pay childcare, like you said.


    Again I agree with you here, actually. If my dad hadn't joined the forces we would not be in the position we have been for the past two years. It seems that it's the only way out of the poverty trap (my cousin, uncle, etc all were forced to do the same thing due to no work) which is incredibly wrong.
    Either you've got your dad's income wrong or the tax rate wrong. Although it formally starts at £31,786, this is after the personal allowance of £10,600 so in effect no income below £42,385 is eligible for that tax rate If your family is on the whole much worse off this year than it was in 13-14 - expected to take in an amount at least 15% less than 13-14 this financial year - then your sister should be eligible for a Current Tax Year Income Form which would allow her to be assessed on this year's income instead and thus receive more money (Really sorry if you've already looked into this and it's condescending - I'm not trying to be, I just know a lot of people who don't realise these extra parts of the process and lose out on money).

    The problem I'd say with adopting that system is the increase administrative costs. Student Finance England already makes a total ****ing mess out of the incredibly simple job they're tasked with, I don't want to see how they deal with something ten times as complex. I was recently told to get a signed letter from my 13 year old brother's school to prove he's not in work part-time because they suspected we were hiding him from the household income This being despite the fact I was about ten grand below the maximum income for the top level of support. I'd love to meet the child earning more than ten grand for their paper round! But on a more serious note, it shows the risk in attempting to weed out those who don't really need the money: that you spend far more on administration for the vast majority of claimants that actually do and end up making a loss.

    The forces is an interesting option, but I'm not sure how flexible they are in taking on mothers of two in their fifties on a part-time basis around hours they can arrange for children to be looked after in I'd wager not very, however, and in any case it's something that many people aren't capable of or at all comfortable with and shouldn't be forced in to.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    then your sister should be eligible for a Current Tax Year Income Form which would allow her to be assessed on this year's income instead and thus receive more money
    I had no idea about this, actually, I'll let her know, thank you. Not sure if she knows - she's the kind of person that wouldn't look into it, even if she's really struggling, but she might have done something about it.

    As for the incomes, yes I got that wrong, my bad. I never meant my dad earn that much - he earns roughly £32,000 or so after tax - but I thought that some could earn £24,000 after tax in that bracket, which was mistaken. Even so, I feel that trying to save enough for University even without my family's debts/etc from before my family was comfortable and the mortgage would be difficult on that amount.

    By my last comment I was meaning that the forces seems like the only way out of the poverty trap to me, which I was saying is ridiculous. I wouldn't want to join the forces myself - in no way is it a proper solution and it shouldn't be the only way.
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    (Original post by celloel)
    I had no idea about this, actually, I'll let her know, thank you. Not sure if she knows - she's the kind of person that wouldn't look into it, even if she's really struggling, but she might have done something about it.

    As for the incomes, yes I got that wrong, my bad. I never meant my dad earn that much - he earns roughly £32,000 or so after tax - but I thought that some could earn £24,000 after tax in that bracket, which was mistaken. Even so, I feel that trying to save enough for University even without my family's debts/etc from before my family was comfortable and the mortgage would be difficult on that amount.

    By my last comment I was meaning that the forces seems like the only way out of the poverty trap to me, which I was saying is ridiculous. I wouldn't want to join the forces myself - in no way is it a proper solution and it shouldn't be the only way.
    No worries, hopefully it can help her out a bit Keep it in mind for yourself too if your family income drops significant in the two years before you head to uni for whatever reason.

    Oh yes, I do think there's a massive difference between £32K and £42K+ which paying the 40% rate infers - especially if your dragging yourself up from previous debts and have a mortgage and kids. There should definitely be better support for families on these barely-above-average incomes anyway.

    Sorry if I upset you earlier - I just genuinely do get annoyed about students with parents who ARE in the 40% tax range complaining about how hard they have it at uni when it almost certainly doesn't compare to what me, you and plenty of others went through before we even got there, and saying how unfair it is to expect their parents to contribute when 99% of the time they can't do so simply because of their own lifestyle choices.
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    (Original post by celloel)
    Thank you for writing all of that. My family are in the 40% tax bracket, but it doesn't mean we're rich. My sister still has a student loan for her tuition fees, still has a maintenance loan and still has to have a job to pay for her rent and her food and her clothes.

    My parents can't afford to just give her money for her rent, etc. In fact, they can't give her any at all, so she works incredibly long hours evening/weekends to pay for her living costs because of her pitifully small maintenance loan. Then there's her friend - whose dad pays her £300 a month - that gets the full maintenance grant.

    It's all based on incomings, not assets, etc, and people aren't as well off as others think they are. It's a stupid system and quite frankly unfair.
    No problem. I completely agree with you.
    I think using your family's income to generate how much you get for a grant is wrong too. Just because a family earns more doesnt mean the family will help with financial costs. If anything, it can put those students in a worse off position.

    In an ideal world I think it'd be a good idea to have a fixed value for the maintenance grant. One for students going to London universities or capital cities, and another for everywhere else in the UK.

    Most of the time I agree more with the Tories, but regarding education I think Labour would have done a much better job.
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    (Original post by celloel)
    Firstly, the 40% tax bracket is for £31,786 and up. Therefore, with the 40% tax, it comes to a total wage of £24,000ish. Tell me again how easy it is to save up for two kid's University educations on £24,000 a year whilst trying to provide for an entire family and pay for mortgages and debt and support their elderly parents etc etc. Because it isn't.
    I don't want to try and invalidate your point but tax doesn't work like that... The figure you quoted of £31,786 is taxable income ABOVE personal allowance. The 40% tax bracket applies to any income above £42,386. So anyone earning that amount would pay nothing on the first £10,600, and 20% on the £31,786. So if you were earning that much, after tax you'd have 36028.8.

    If someone earns £31,786 a year like you said, they'd pay nothing on the first £10,600 and 20% on £21186, so in total would earn £27548.8 after tax.

    Someone in the 40% tax bracket, assuming they don't have a ridiculous number of debts could save for their child to go uni if they really wanted to. That's not me saying the current system is fair though as I do think every family is different - not all families are going to want to send their kids loads of money to support them through uni even if they can afford it. In cases like that then that kid that wants to go to uni is in no better a situation living cost wise than someone from a poorer family (had they not been given a higher maintenance loan). If we continue to work off a loans based system and not grants then I'd personally support giving everyone the same maintenance.
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    (Original post by k4l397)
    I don't want to try and invalidate your point but tax doesn't work like that... The figure you quoted of £31,786 is taxable income ABOVE personal allowance. The 40% tax bracket applies to any income above £42,386. So anyone earning that amount would pay nothing on the first £10,600, and 20% on the £31,786. So if you were earning that much, after tax you'd have 36028.8.

    If someone earns £31,786 a year like you said, they'd pay nothing on the first £10,600 and 20% on £21186, so in total would earn £27548.8 after tax.

    Someone in the 40% tax bracket, assuming they don't have a ridiculous number of debts could save for their child to go uni if they really wanted to. That's not me saying the current system is fair though as I do think every family is different - not all families are going to want to send their kids loads of money to support them through uni even if they can afford it. In cases like that then that kid that wants to go to uni is in no better a situation living cost wise than someone from a poorer family (had they not been given a higher maintenance loan). If we continue to work off a loans based system and not grants then I'd personally support giving everyone the same maintenance.
    Your calculation misses out employee NI at 12% for the amount between£8,064 and £42,384. It also ignores possible employee pension contributions, maybe 4-7% on similar earning band (with employer matching, if not say 10-12% on similar band) if the individual wants to have a pension greater than the state pension on retirement. So real take home pay is likely much lower.

    And once the parent receives that net there are all sorts of costs to meet like mortgage, heat and light, council tax, holidays, insurance, food, clothes, maybe a car and its costs, TV/internet, property repairs/maint, replace appliances, maybe life insurance, maybe trying to save some money and maybe pocket money, outings etc; they can end up with not that much left even if a higher rate taxpayer.

    A family with say two kids, a £160,000 mortgage ( capital and interest )and a family income that maybe takes one parent into higher rate may not have had much money to save- in our case nursery childcare cleaned us out in the early years, school years not that bad and then when both at university nearly £10,000 p.a. out of after tax income/ savings/debt went on the rents for the rooms in flats etc as they went away to university for four years each. (Scotland)

    So next year (unless a post grad course- fees on these are eye watering) we maybe get a chance to try to replenish the bank balance for say another 10 years max and finish paying the mortgage before we look to stop work, but possibly not-maybe need to fund a wedding or two, maybe help with a flat purchase, who knows.

    So the glib comment "if they really wanted to" is I suspect from someone who has possibly not worked for nearly forty years or raised a family, bought a family house, paid all costs and tried to save.

    Maybe we should have bought a dog instead.
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    Hiya, I have just been reading this thread and believe I may have some information which may help you all or at least give you another option, apologies if not.Just thought I would write a quick post about my experience with the sponsored degree I have just completed.
    It was with a company called CGI who are a massive company and they paid for my degree in full and also have a starting salary of £14k which increases every year (providing you don't fail of course). I received a first class degree in Business Management and I know they also now offer an IT degree as well if that suits you more.
    I would definitely recommend completing a sponsored degree as you end up debt free, receive a nice salary and also gain valid work experience. Also I know they now offer a higher apprenticeship as well so that maybe something you want to look at to give yourself another option?

    Any questions, feel free to ask. Just thought it would be useful giving you a quick snapshot of how I found the degree
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    Hiya, I have just been reading this thread and believe I may have some information which may help you all or at least give you another option, apologies if not.Just thought I would write a quick post about my experience with the sponsored degree I have just completed.
    It was with a company called CGI who are a massive company and they paid for my degree in full and also have a starting salary of £14k which increases every year (providing you don't fail of course). I received a first class degree in Business Management and I know they also now offer an IT degree as well if that suits you more.
    I would definitely recommend completing a sponsored degree as you end up debt free, receive a nice salary and also gain valid work experience. Also I know they now offer a higher apprenticeship as well so that maybe something you want to look at to give yourself another option?

    Any questions, feel free to ask. Just thought it would be useful giving you a quick snapshot of how I found the degree
    • Official TSR Representative
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    Official TSR Representative
    Thank you for that information you have provided Rebecca.
    Here at CGI we not only offer the Sponsored Degree Programme which Rebecca has completed, but we also offer Apprenticeships, Industrial Placement and Graduate Opportunities and are actively recruiting.
    For more information please visit our profile on The Student Room (Link below):http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/content.php?r=15597-CGI-Recruiter-Profile-School-Leavers
    Or feel free to contact a member of our recruitment team at [email protected]
    Follow us on Twitter: @CGI_UK_Students
    Like us on Facebook: CGI UK Students
    Whatsapp us: +447717356740
    Visit us: www.cgi-group.co.uk/careers/school-and-college-leavers
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    (Original post by k4l397)
    If we continue to work off a loans based system and not grants then I'd personally support giving everyone the same maintenance.
    Yeah, I realised I got the tax system wrong in my comment. Completely forgot about the personal allowance :facepalm: and I used a dodgy tax calculator to quickly work out the figures.

    I definitely think everyone should get the same maintenance when it changes to a loan system (has it yet?). Even if the take home pay would be £36000 and without debt it still isn't anywhere near enough to save up anywhere between £8k-£10k (halls £4k pa, food £1.4k pa, transport £1k pa, personal expenses like clothes, prescriptions, etc) per University year per child for them to live off of whilst paying for food, mortgage and basic necessities.
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    (Original post by RebeccaMay1)
    Any questions, feel free to ask. Just thought it would be useful giving you a quick snapshot of how I found the degree
    Which University did you do your degree with? Did you go straight into a job with the company after completion? If so, are you obligated to have a job with them seeing as they sponsored you?
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    Going for technical education like BTECH will give you more opportunities in future than A Levels.
 
 
 
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