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Are ISIS muslims? watch

  • View Poll Results: Are ISIS militants MUSLIMS?
    Yes.
    124
    42.91%
    No.
    77
    26.64%
    They are muslims. But not "true" muslims
    71
    24.57%
    Idk
    17
    5.88%

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    (Original post by QE2)
    They are representative of a particular, literalist interpretation of Islam. Much of what they do is permitted by the Quran or sunnah.
    I would say 'Permitted by interpretations of the Quran and Seerah resultant from certain historical opinions.' Many of the narrations that they draw the mandate for their policies from are not considered reliable by all muslims. I've studied hadiths for 4 years and I've found dozens of hadiths which are considered reliable because some 13th century historian said that they 'found them pleasing' or similar silly reasons that would be considered laughable by any modern historian - indeed, some historians of the time felt the same.
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    (Original post by Faisalshamallakh)
    You won't believe fellow Muslims in your country that distance themselves from ISIS, but you'll believe ISIS when they try and associate themselves with Islam.

    Logic.
    It's not a matter of believing what any one group say (each one having their own agenda and vested interests).

    It is about making observations and arriving at a conclusion based on them.
    ISIS do x, y and z. If permission for x, y and z can be found within the Quran or sunnah and mainstream tafsir, then the evidence (not opinion) shows that they are, indeed, Muslims. Just a different kind of Muslim, with a different agenda, to you.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    The Quran specifically permits killing in certain circumstances - including those who commit fitnah or fasad, which translate as opposition to or rejection of Allah and his message, as well as civil disobedience and rebellion.

    It even states the killing is less of a sin than disbelief.
    A lot of muslim ideologies, particularly within the shia school of thought, do not believe that fitna has anything to do with disbelief or rejection of Islam. Fitna means division and social unrest to most of us, not necessarily involving rebellion. The Quran says, 'Fitna is worse than killing', i.e. it is better to fight rebellion than to have social unrest - however, this only remains true in cases where the fitna is necessary to make dissociation (tabarra) from a despotic regime.

    I follow the whole of Islam as was taught by Muhammad and his Ahlulbayt. I do not add anything brought in via the fabrications of certain narrations by the so called 'rightly guided caliphs', nor that of their political descendants.

    There are certain rules that have changed over time, but the principles behind them have not - such as a woman having half the testimony in a court of law where finances are concerned. Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) explained that this was because the women of the time were not schooled in the field, but that Islam was engaging them within it - and that by his own time, women were educated enough that their financial testimony was worth the same as an educated man's, and that an uneducated man's was worth that of an uneducated woman's.

    The principle in this case was to bring women into finance to progress gender equality, and that has not changed.
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    A lot of things can be said to be found in the Quran which in fact are not to be, except by the treating of the Quran as if it's written in modern arabic and not fus'ha. One example would be in the whole 'wife beating verse', where the word is often wrongly translated to mean 'beating' is only used elsewhere in the Quran as a verb meaning 'to separate from'.
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    (Original post by Axious11)
    Even that would not make me Muslim or anyone else willing to join the cause AFAIK most of the ISIS wannabe are from all over the world.. its just willingness to join the cause and accept Allah
    So what you're saying is that ISIS members aren't necessarily Muslims, they just support the Islamic caliphate and accept Allah?
    Erm...ok...
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    (Original post by booksandcats)
    No because if they are "muslims" then why would they kill many innocent muslims like some of the syrian refugees that we've all heard on the news.
    They don't consider them to be "innocent Muslims" if they oppose ISIS, because ISIS considers itself to be the only true, acceptable form of Islam and therefore anyone who opposes it, or who follow a sect that ISIS do not approve of, is an apostate, and is therefore liable to killing under Islamic law.
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    (Original post by booksandcats)
    Terrorism is above all murder.
    Actually, the Quran states that fitnah (disbelief/opposition) is worse than killing. (2:191)

    Murder is strictly forbidden in the Qur’an.
    All depends on your definition of "murder". Essentially, it means killing someone unlawfully.

    Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.”
    So killing those that Islam permits is OK.

    5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”
    So it is not forbidden if the victim is guilty of "fasad" (defind as opposition to Allah and his Messenger, amongst other things).

    You also forgot to mention the following verse...
    "Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth to cause corruption (fasad) is none but that they be killed" - 5:33
    In his authoratative classical tafsir, Ibn Kathir explains 'wage war' to include "opposition, contradiction and disbelief", and that the verse is general in nature and applies to all those guily of such crimes.
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    (Original post by ya98)
    isis go against everything in the image below. There is other stuff too such as not allowing girls the right to education and bombing mosques etc.

    more people need to see this.
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    (Original post by mercuryman)
    more people need to see this.
    Yes, and understand that they can't just accept something as islamic just because it's muslims saying it. What you just posted contains no references whatsoever. Even if some of those points are true, they can't be taken without evidence. Point 21 for instance is what ISIS is actually using to enforce their authority in the lands they've conquered.
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    They are a militant sect of Muslims
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    (Original post by SHBKhan)
    And the things that ISIS do are included on that list which exclude you from Islam
    Could reference the sura where this list occurs please? I have not come across it.

    (Original post by Kyou)
    However one thing is certain; some of the acts they commit are indeed major sins in Islam.
    Which ones?
    (Please don't just say things like "killing innocents". You need to explain it in the context of what is permitted in the Quran and sunnah and the nature of the interpretation they follow.)

    (Original post by Deenaa.xo)
    They claim to be muslim, however if you study Islam in depth from the right people, you will come to realise that it's not what the religion actually teaches them. I guess you have to go with the fact that Islam is perfect but Muslims are not.
    What if you study Islam from a neutal, non-partisan viewpoint. If one does that, it clearly shows that the Quran, sunnah and tafsir contain passages that can provide justification for their actions.

    If Islam was perfect, Muslims would not be able to misinterpret it.
    It would not have given rise to centuries of bloody internal conflict.
    It would have done a much better job at converting the 75% of the world that were not born into Muslim communities.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Actually, the Quran states that fitnah (disbelief/opposition) is worse than killing. (2:191)

    All depends on your definition of "murder". Essentially, it means killing someone unlawfully.

    So killing those that Islam permits is OK.

    So it is not forbidden if the victim is guilty of "fasad" (defind as opposition to Allah and his Messenger, amongst other things).

    You also forgot to mention the following verse...
    "Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth to cause corruption (fasad) is none but that they be killed" - 5:33
    In his authoratative classical tafsir, Ibn Kathir explains 'wage war' to include "opposition, contradiction and disbelief", and that the verse is general in nature and applies to all those guily of such crimes.
    Ibn Kathir was the student of Ibn Taymiyyah, who is even reviled as a 'scholar' by many sunnis, not only the shia who he despised to the point of outright lying about us.
    He is not by any means an 'authoritative' exegesis writer for muslims in general.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Could reference the sura where this list occurs please? I have not come across it.

    Which ones?
    (Please don't just say things like "killing innocents". You need to explain it in the context of what is permitted in the Quran and sunnah and the nature of the interpretation they follow.)

    What if you study Islam from a neutal, non-partisan viewpoint. If one does that, it clearly shows that the Quran, sunnah and tafsir contain passages that can provide justification for their actions.

    If Islam was perfect, Muslims would not be able to misinterpret it.
    It would not have given rise to centuries of bloody internal conflict.
    It would have done a much better job at converting the 75% of the world that were not born into Muslim communities.
    Islam is only perfect when the rope of god is taken in its whole essence. The Quran is only one half of the rope of god - only one of the 'weighty things' or thaqalayn. Muhammad said that without Ahlulbayt, the muslims would be led astray despite having the quran - the same is true for having ahlulbayt but abandoning the Quran. If you have not heard of this, I would encourage you to read the hadith of Ghadir Khumm and the Farewell Sermon.
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    (Original post by Melonlemon;60522625These people clearly view themselves as islamic so therefore they're muslims, [i)
    albeit they're extreme in their views[/i].
    Their views are no more extreme than any other Muslim. They all believe that every word of the Quran is literally the word of Allah and as true and applicable today as it was 1400 years ago. Most believe that the sunnah is the perfect moral and practical example for all mankind.

    It's just that most Muslims do not act on these beliefs (thankfully!)

    (Original post by SHBKhan)
    This list shows why ISIS are not Islamic.
    All those points can be shown to be wrong, inapplicable or misleading (and the people who wrote it must be aware of this.)

    (Original post by SHBKhan)
    Number 9: Don't call someone a non Muslim unless they state they are.
    How does that tell us ISIS is Muslim. You need to learn how to use your brain.
    ISIS members claim that they are Muslims. They follow the 5 pillars. You claim that they are not. They have not declared disbelief themselves (rather they claim they are following Muhammad's message most closely).
    Therefore, you have broken point 9 yourself, which means (according to that list) that you are not Islamic!
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    They think their following the values of islam by killing and beheading innocent people but theyre pathetically wrong and thus not true muslims
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Nonsense! Have you read the Quran? It repeatedly explains who should be killed, and why (it is usually the disbelievers BTW).

    Give me an example of something that ISIS do that you claim goes against Islam, and I will be able to show you clear justification from the Quran or sunnah (that's the example of Muhammad BTW).
    Those who say that particular passages do not provide justification essentially use the "Allah and Muhammad did not mean what they said" or "that was only meant to apply to 7th century Arabia" argument, whereas the likes of ISIS use the "Allah and Muhammad did mean what they said" and "The Quran and sunnah are for all people and all time" argument.
    why are you slightly prejudiced towards me?..
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    (Original post by alishba-rosex)
    why are you slightly prejudiced towards me?..
    I don't think he's prejudiced towards you, he's just vehemently disagreeing with you because he's researched the popular translations of the Quran and so has grounds to dispute your opinions. Please, just give him one of the examples of things you believe are not Islamic which ISIS does so that he can 'prove' to you that they are 'islamic'. Then I can use historical and linguistic analysis to prove the interpretation invalid from the perspective of what the Prophet (sawas) actually taught.
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    (Original post by SHBKhan)
    Against killing someone in self defense. Is that hard to understand?
    How is "kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.", covered by "self-defence"?

    (Original post by SHBKhan)
    I'm not here to convince you I'm just stating what I know as a Muslim. People constantly moan that Muslims don't do anything or condemn ISIS but here I am. And now you're trying to counter me when I'm trying to not associate an evil group with my religion because I believe in peace and all I want to do is coexist. But it's as if you don't want that.
    But you still believe that the passages that permit expansionist military action, slavery, sex with slaves, death for opponents, treating prisoners brutally as a warning to others, are true and the literal word of god.

    So essentially you are saying "I condemn what ISIS do, but I support their reasons for doing it". Which is actually tacitly supporting them.

    (Original post by SHBKhan)
    Rule Number 9 was there because ISIS is claiming anyone against them was Non-Muslim and this is mentioned in the Qu'ran too.
    But by using this as a reason for calling takfir on them, you are logically calling takfir on yourself. I don't know why you find it so hard to understand - unless it's because all this "Quran studying" or yours merely involves learning by rote and accepting, uncritically, everything you are told.
    Didn't Allah say "Don't ask awkward questions. Some people did and lost their faith" - and we all know what happens to people who lose their faith, don't we?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    They are representative of a particular, literalist interpretation of Islam. Much of what they do is permitted by the Quran or sunnah.
    True, to some extent. However when we also take into consideration of other actions:

    1) ISIS have killed Muslims (under no circumstance is this permitted in Islam)
    2) ISIS have attacked places of worship such as churches and even mosques. This is forbiddon regardless of whether you're Muslim, Christian or Jewish
    3) ISIS have tortured and killed with the use of fire. In Islam, the use of fire in such practices are absolutely forbidden since only the lord of fire (god) is allowed to punish with fire. A specific example of this is when ISIS burned the Jordanian Sunni Muslim pilot which went viral on the internet.
    5) When 'occupying' an area during war, Muslims are not permitted to steal from and disrupt the local economy. ISIS do this by selling oil in the black markets which is actually one of their sources for money.

    I don't deny that verses in the Quran are taken literally or even intentionally misinterpreted in order to justify the atrocities ISIS are comitting. However when we look at ISIS' actions, we must also address their practices that contradict Islam such as the ones above.

    This doesn't mean they're not Muslims, it just means they are extremely bad Muslims and therefore cannot be remotely representitve of Islam in general.
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    (Original post by Ruby17)
    Personally, I don't consider them Muslims. 'It is important to clarify what it really means to be a Muslim. I and countless other Muslims, have been taught from our earliest years that our religion demanded respect and caring for others. The Prophet Mohammad, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself.”

    This is what it means to be a Muslim.

    Among the very names of God, we hear: the Compassionate, the All-Merciful. All my life, every day, I have heard and used the greeting, Assalamu aleikum — a wish for the other to be blessed with peace.

    This is what it means to be a Muslim.

    More than a thousand years before the Geneva Conventions, Muslim soldiers were ordered not to kill a child, a woman or an old person, not to destroy a tree, not to harm a priest, not to destroy a church.

    These are the same values of Islam we were taught in school as children: not to destroy or desecrate a place where God is worshipped, not a mosque, not a church, not a synagogue.

    This is what it means to be a Muslim.'

    For me a Muslim is someone who simultaneously loves and has comparison for humanity. Just because someone is born a Muslim does not make them a Muslim. ISIS is a disgusting group who promote a political agenda wrapped in a flag of extremist ideology. We also must not be so naive to forget about world powers who encouraged this sort of ideology in their proxy wars. All in all I don't consider them Muslim, to say I despise them is an understatement.
    But virtually everything you listed is not specifically related to Islam, most decent human beings behave that way..
 
 
 
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