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    (Original post by WoodyMKC)
    Yet many still consider him so. Speaks volumes that he only had time to make two albums, yet with those two albums he influenced so many. Everything that came out after Life After Death, sounded like Life After Death. Many great post-Biggie rappers cite him as an influence.

    Quality > quantity
    The thing is, is that he hasn't stood the test of time, which is what really defines the GOAT. Two sick albums just doesn't do it. He's only considered legendary because he died. He just would of been another good artist if he was still alive, like Jay Z. No doubt he would of come out with some bullcrap....or would he?

    I mean, you observe the GOATS from other genres, they have well established discographies and immense live performances. They've all produced some absolute rubbish as well. Pink Floyd, MJ, The Beatles etc.
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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    The thing is, is that he hasn't stood the test of time, which is what really defines the GOAT. Two sick albums just doesn't do it. He's only considered legendary because he died. He just would of been another good artist if he was still alive, like Jay Z. No doubt he would of come out with some bullcrap....or would he?
    How when so many still consider those two albums to be some of the greatest of all time and a lot of people see them as timeless classics? I still hear Biggie's music bumping out of people's car windows all the time :lol: He was practically the representative for the entire east coast during the whole east coast vs west coast thing - that was while he was still alive of course, as were many rappers that are now considered to be some of the greatest
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    (Original post by WoodyMKC)
    How when so many still consider those two albums to be some of the greatest of all time and a lot of people see them as timeless classics? I still hear Biggie's music bumping out of people's car windows all the time :lol: He was practically the representative for the entire east coast during the whole east coast vs west coast thing - that was while he was still alive of course, as were many rappers that are now considered to be some of the greatest
    I don't mean his music standing the test of time I mean him as an artist.

    Do you hear tracks other than Juicy, Hypnotize, Big Poppa playing? Those are the only tracks I still hear bumping.
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    (Original post by trillinhomie)
    Which outkast
    ATLiens is my favourite
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    (Original post by WoodyMKC)
    I've said nothing irrelevant. I was pointing out the Mtume sample because that's where the lyrics came from, albeit slightly modified. Go and listen to the first line in the song and compare it to the hook in Juicy.

    This discussion was originally about lyrical skill, and how songs sell because they sound good. Finding your rap voice doesn't make you agood rapper. Having a good flow doesn't automatically make you a good rapper. When you look at all the rappers that enthusiasts consider to be the greatest of all time, what do they all have in common? They're amazing lyricists. THAT's what seperates them. But songs don't sell on lyrical ability alone - far from. As I've said, if a song sounds good, people will buy it. Sure, the flow and voice on the verses helps it sound good, but they don't make a great rapper. As I've also said, the beat and hook are the main things and they're very often not written, produced or performed by the rapper. Many hits have ****ing dreadful lyrics, but they sound good and they sell as a result.

    I can't believe I'm having to break this down to someone who makes themselves out to be a hip hop fan :rofl:
    but u still needed skill to make it sound good....if that was the case every song would be a hit cuz skill doesnt matter

    lmao u know nothin about rap....good flow doesnt make u good....

    so i guess u can be a good rapper if you are off beat lmao
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    (Original post by Latin Beauty)
    but u still needed skill to make it sound good....if that was the case every song would be a hit cuz skill doesnt matter

    lmao u know nothin about rap....good flow doesnt make u good....

    so i guess u can be a good rapper if you are off beat lmao
    OMFG.... you don't read too well, do you??? Every single sentence you've just written has come from you clearly misinterpretting what I've written, and you KEEP doing it. I can only dumb things down so much...
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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    I don't mean his music standing the test of time I mean him as an artist.

    Do you hear tracks other than Juicy, Hypnotize, Big Poppa playing? Those are the only tracks I still hear bumping.
    It'd be unfair for some rappers not to be considered because they were gunned down in their prime. As I say, quality over quantity, and two albums that were so influencial are worth more than 10+ albums that just went along with the current sound IMO.

    Those are his most popular tracks so people are naturally gonna play those, but yeah I hear all sorts. Just the other day some kids walking past me were playing Party & ******** on their phones :lol:
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    (Original post by WoodyMKC)
    I've said nothing irrelevant. I was pointing out the Mtume sample because that's where the lyrics came from, albeit slightly modified. Go and listen to the first line in the song and compare it to the hook in Juicy.

    This discussion was originally about lyrical skill, and how songs sell because they sound good. Finding your rap voice doesn't make you agood rapper. Having a good flow doesn't automatically make you a good rapper. When you look at all the rappers that enthusiasts consider to be the greatest of all time, what do they all have in common? They're amazing lyricists. THAT's what seperates them. But songs don't sell on lyrical ability alone - far from. As I've said, if a song sounds good, people will buy it. Sure, the flow and voice on the verses helps it sound good, but they don't make a great rapper. As I've also said, the beat and hook are the main things and they're very often not written, produced or performed by the rapper. Many hits have ****ing dreadful lyrics, but they sound good and they sell as a result.

    I can't believe I'm having to break this down to someone who makes themselves out to be a hip hop fan :rofl:
    plus the lyrics in juicy fruit got nothin to do with biggies...not even the hook

    u said making a hit is not based on skill

    yet u still need skill to even make a one hit wonder with a catchy hook....its just less skill

    then u said good flow doesnt automatically make u good

    i said flow is a part of skill - component.....smh

    meaning if u have any of the things....u have some skill...which is needed to make a hit

    like i said u make rap sound like anybody can do it.....trinidad james is trash overall but he still had skill to make a hit - all gold everything....but the rest was weak thats why he got booted......if u didnt need skill to make a hit...he wouldnt have gotten booted
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    (Original post by WoodyMKC)
    It'd be unfair for some rappers not to be considered because they were gunned down in their prime. As I say, quality over quantity, and two albums that were so influencial are worth more than 10+ albums that just went along with the current sound IMO.

    Those are his most popular tracks so people are naturally gonna play those, but yeah I hear all sorts. Just the other day some kids walking past me were playing Party & ******** on their phones :lol:
    But then it's unfair to rappers who are still alive to be pushed off the pedastal just because they've been around to release some absolute dog****.

    Nas for example, for me Illmatic was better than Biggies albums, even though I generally listen to Biggie more, but because Nas has been alive, he's been here long enough to release terrible stuff as well. I think Biggie would of done the same. I think artists get legendary status slapped on to them a little bit easier when they die, nostalgia and all that. Aaliyah, Kurt Cobain (the latter being totally undeserved), Hendrix, Bob Marley. (Bob Marley is definitely a GOAT in his genre, however)

    For me, I'd say Rakim is a worthy contender for GOAT status. Biggie even cited him as an influence.
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    Underrated asf
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    (Original post by Latin Beauty)

    u need skill to write a catchy hook...not much but still
    Yea. Music engineering skills.
    That credit goes to the producer and ghostwriters. Who are often overlooked and it's ****ed up, is it not?

    & you do know that skill is something that is taught right? Skill =/=talent. Sure some might naturally have the talent but others just rehearse it according to how the beat was composed often times withOUT the rapper, and how the lyrics were written withOUT the rapper.
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    (Original post by hezzlington)
    But then it's unfair to rappers who are still alive to be pushed off the pedastal just because they've been around to release some absolute dog****.

    Nas for example, for me Illmatic was better than Biggies albums, even though I generally listen to Biggie more, but because Nas has been alive, he's been here long enough to release terrible stuff as well. I think Biggie would of done the same. I think artists get legendary status slapped on to them a little bit easier when they die, nostalgia and all that. Aaliyah, Kurt Cobain (the latter being totally undeserved), Hendrix, Bob Marley. (Bob Marley is definitely a GOAT in his genre, however)

    For me, I'd say Rakim is a worthy contender for GOAT status. Biggie even cited him as an influence.
    Thing is, when Ready To Die and Illmatic are compared on an album vs album basis, Ready To Die generally holds its own. Then of course there are many others who hold Life After Death in even higher regard than both albums (not saying I do personally, but a lot of people do), and LAD was the album that influenced future artists. So, even if Biggie was still around and put out a few stinkers, I still feel he'd be comparable to the likes of Nas and Eminem and would possibly come out on top.

    Do certainly agree with you on Rakim
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    (Original post by Latin Beauty)
    plus the lyrics in juicy fruit got nothin to do with biggies...not even the hook

    u said making a hit is not based on skill

    yet u still need skill to even make a one hit wonder with a catchy hook....its just less skill

    then u said good flow doesnt automatically make u good

    i said flow is a part of skill - component.....smh

    meaning if u have any of the things....u have some skill...which is needed to make a hit

    like i said u make rap sound like anybody can do it.....trinidad james is trash overall but he still had skill to make a hit - all gold everything....but the rest was weak thats why he got booted......if u didnt need skill to make a hit...he wouldnt have gotten booted
    ....WHAT??? Okay, the opening line on Juicy Fruit:

    You know very well what you are
    You’re my sugar thing, my chocolate star
    I’ve had a few, but not that many
    But you’re the only love that gives me good and plenty

    And the hook on Juicy:

    You know very well who you are
    Don't let em hold you down, reach for the stars
    You had a goal, but not that many
    'cause you're the only one I'll give you good and plenty

    As I pointed out, the lyrics are modified for a different subject matter, but if you can't see the similarities there (the vocal pattern was even replicated FFS) then I'm wasting my proverbial breath.


    Just because you can't quite comprehend what I'm trying to explain to you, it doesn't mean I don't know anything about hip hop. I grew up on it, and as someone who has dabbled in producing hip hop myself and been paid to do so, I know how a track is put together, who's responsible behind certain processes and so on.

    Now, since you don't seem to be grasping what I'm telling you, let's use an example - a golf player perhaps... He can drive a ball 300-400 yards consistently. However, get him out on the green, and he has no control over his direction. Can't putt to save his life. Always ends up something like 10 over par, but he can drive a ball 300+ yards, so he's a good golf player, right? WRONG. He's not a good golf player just because he has a powerful swing.

    The above example applies to being a rapper. Sure, you might have a good voice and flow pretty well, but those are only parts of what makes a rapper good. Without all the determining factors, i.e. voice, flow, lyrics and relatability, you're not a good rapper. As I think we've established, a song can be lacking in good lyrics and still be a hit. Because it SOUNDS good. Just because it sells a lot, doesn't automatically mean that the rapper on it is a great rapper. If you just have "some skill" as you put it, that doesn't make you a great rapper - it makes you mediocre at best.
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    (Original post by LittleMissMay)
    Yea. Music engineering skills.
    That credit goes to the producer and ghostwriters. Who are often overlooked and it's ****ed up, is it not?

    & you do know that skill is something that is taught right? Skill =/=talent. Sure some might naturally have the talent but others just rehearse it according to how the beat was composed often times withOUT the rapper, and how the lyrics were written withOUT the rapper.
    not everybody has a ghostwriter

    dr dre for example wrote his own

    skill aint always something taught lmao....u ever heard of naturally gifted?
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    it aint got nothin to do with growin up in the ghetto was my point

    biggie still needed skill for that hit when u said u dont need skill

    many people remixed that and imitated yet they aint hits

    cuz not everybody has skill

    dummy

    (Original post by WoodyMKC)
    ....WHAT??? Okay, the opening line on Juicy Fruit:

    You know very well what you are
    You’re my sugar thing, my chocolate star
    I’ve had a few, but not that many
    But you’re the only love that gives me good and plenty

    And the hook on Juicy:

    You know very well who you are
    Don't let em hold you down, reach for the stars
    You had a goal, but not that many
    'cause you're the only one I'll give you good and plenty

    As I pointed out, the lyrics are modified for a different subject matter, but if you can't see the similarities there (the vocal pattern was even replicated FFS) then I'm wasting my proverbial breath.


    Just because you can't quite comprehend what I'm trying to explain to you, it doesn't mean I don't know anything about hip hop. I grew up on it, and as someone who has dabbled in producing hip hop myself and been paid to do so, I know how a track is put together, who's responsible behind certain processes and so on.

    Now, since you don't seem to be grasping what I'm telling you, let's use an example - a gold player perhaps... He can drive a ball 300-400 yards consistently. However, get him out on the green, and he has no control over his direction. Can't putt to save his life. Always ends up something like 10 over par, but he can drive a ball 300+ yards, so he's a good gold player, right? WRONG. He's not a good golf player just because he has a powerful swing.

    The above example applies to being a rapper. Sure, you might have a good voice and flow pretty well, but those are only parts of what makes a rapper good. Without all the determining factors, i.e. voice, flow, lyrics and relatability, you're not a good rapper. As I think we've established, a song can be lacking in good lyrics and still be a hit. Because it SOUNDS good. Just because it sells a lot, doesn't automatically mean that the rapper on it is a great rapper. If you just have "some skill" as you put it, that doesn't make you a great rapper - it makes you mediocre at best.
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    School Boy Q - Oxymoron
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    (Original post by Latin Beauty)
    it aint got nothin to do with growin up in the ghetto was my point

    biggie still needed skill for that hit when u said u dont need skill

    many people remixed that and imitated yet they aint hits

    cuz not everybody has skill

    dummy
    Well done. You've replied to absolutely nothing I've corrected you on and come up with a completely different point - sure, Biggie being on the track had something to do with that track being successful, absolutely - but it's irrelevant to what we were discussing and certainly doesn't mean that all hits mean the rapper on them is skilled when the lyrics on successful singles are often terrible.

    I think I'm wasting my time here, you clearly just don't want to admit when you're wrong and you just seem to be avoiding answering me directly when you realise you're wrong.
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    (Original post by Latin Beauty)
    not everybody has a ghostwriter

    dr dre for example wrote his own

    skill aint always something taught lmao....u ever heard of naturally gifted?
    Erm. Clearly I have. Since the post you quoted says right there "naturally talented."

    And I already told you skill doesn't equal talent.

    Let me google you the definition of skill.
    You see where it says "trained?"

    Dr. Dre couldn't make a banger if he tried; he did that way before when "the game" was totally different. No one's praised Dre for rap skill anyway, it was for music production.

    And yes everybody has a ghost writer.
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    Let me google the definition of talent

    It says "natural skill and ability"

    skill says "trained expertise, learned ability." It also says nothing about talent.

    Rap skill isn't natural to anyone. Every rapper either self taught themselves how to develop vocabulary, or they were trained in the studio; it's called "developmental deals." Granted...they might have natural musical talent aka a good ear and rhythm.
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    (Original post by WoodyMKC)
    Well done. You've replied to absolutely nothing I've corrected you on and come up with a completely different point - sure, Biggie being on the track had something to do with that track being successful, absolutely - but it's irrelevant to what we were discussing and certainly doesn't mean that all hits mean the rapper on them is skilled when the lyrics on successful singles are often terrible.

    I think I'm wasting my time here, you clearly just don't want to admit when you're wrong and you just seem to be avoiding answering me directly when you realise you're wrong.
    the whole point was u need skill to make a hit

    u disagreed

    now u just said Biggie being on the track had something to do with that track being successful, absolutely

    backtrackin huh lmao

    now u talkin about all hits and whatever......i wasnt on a one for all tip....i used biggie as one example...u came thru talkin about everything else...confusing yourself...thinkin im confused...na
 
 
 
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