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    (Original post by Nerwen)
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    First of all, part of the problem here is with the defintion of mathematical ability. But my point still stands that being slow when finding methods in maths does not mean you lack mathematical ability, speed is not necessary for mathematical ability.

    You are a medical student, not a full-time maths student. It is a perfectly logical assumption to make that you have less experience with higher level maths.

    To be quite frank I don't see the problem with refusing to answer a question when I do not wish to debate the topic involved. Just because you ask a question it doesn't mean I am obligated to answer.

    I had initially been hoping that I'd return to a well reasoned response, I probably shouldn't have expected that. I have tried very hard to be respectful, even acknowledging where I feel I have had difficulty communicating appropriately. However your last post seems to show that you have given up all hope of a respectful discussion

    Trying to imply I don't value logic in order to sweep over the fact that you lack experience in the area you are making claims about, and then proclaiming your lack of respect for me due to my refusal to be pulled into a secondary debate. This is poor show in a discussion, and so while I had initially returned to the site today to set up the blocks for it on my phone, I shall be first blocking you.

    It is unfortunate this discussion had to end on such a sour note. I would therefore like to leave you with some quotes by some more qualified people than me when it comes to this area.

    The competitions reinforce the notion that either you ‘have good math genes’, or you do not. They put an emphasis on being quick, at the expense of being deep and thoughtful. They emphasize questions which are puzzles with some hidden trick, rather than more realistic problems where a systematic and persistent approach is important. This discourages many people who are not as quick or as practiced, but might be good at working through problems when they have the time to think through them. Some of the best performers on the contests do become good mathematicians, but there are also many top mathematicians who were not so good on contest math.Quickness is helpful in mathematics, but it is only one of the qualities which is helpful. -- Fields Medalist William Thurston

    ... the most profound contributions to mathematics are often made by tortoises rather than hares. As mathematicians develop, they learn various tricks of the trade, partly from the work of other mathematicians and partly as a result of many hours spent thinking about mathematics. What determines whether they can use their expertise to solve notorious problems is, in large measure, a matter of careful planning: attempting problems that are likely to be fruitful, knowing when to give up a line of thought (a difficult judgement to make), being able to sketch broad outlines of arguments before, just occasionally, managing to fill in the details. -- Fields Medalist Timothy Gowers
    Discussion is already over mate.

    I don't respect a fool who holds onto assumptions. Maybe this is due to your problem with written communication who knows. I'm not going to judge you but that doesn't mean I respect you.

    Go on block this site like you said earlier, I don't want you to have more panic attacks.
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    (Original post by morgan8002)
    To both of the above: you don't know everything about how he works so he could have some difficulty that you are unaware of. Or you could be right and he's getting it unfairly.
    I do know him well enough to know that he doesn't actually need the 15 mins. He believes the best way of revising is last-minute revision, which puzzles me, because I believed that anyone on the autism spectrum would need things to be organised, and last-minute revision doesn't seem very organised - he himself isn't organised, in my opinion, either. But I do agree with xylas and Tinka99 in that just having autism/Asperger's/ADHD is not enough; one must have difficulties that are associated with having the condition - extra time for just having the condition is simply not sufficient.


    (Original post by morgan8002)
    Why do you think it's a poor excuse? She takes ~15% longer to get her ideas down.
    Well, if all it is is struggling to write fast, then that's an excuse really, not a proper reason. I write slowly; other people write slowly - it's all about training your hand to write faster. Just not being able to write fast enough could apply to so many other people.
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    No, I'm afraid I just can't see it. It troubles me that I don't feel more sympathetic on this one... However, there just seem to be too many logical cases against it.

    Eg. If someone has issues with handwriting and spelling that are severe and linked to dyslexia then I think they should be allowed an amanuensis (which should be marked on their exam certificates) and given the standard amount of time. If their issues are mild then surely they could choose between being marked down for this or being recorded as having an amanuensis. If someone cannot mange the paper in the set time for another reason then they should present at a lower level. In this way academically talented individuals with dyslexia would not be prevented from progressing in the education system while people with illegitimate reasons would not be allotted extra time.

    What would constitue an 'illegitimate reason'? Well (according to me), perhaps people with ADHD and autism need to accept their limitations and focus on their strengths. If someone could make a case for the specific link between autism and the need for extra time I'd be interested to hear it. I've spent much time with individuals with autism over the years and as far I as can tell individuals with the condition may have impaired functioning in some respects and sometimes augmented in others. (It's swings and roundabouts.) I do not see what differentiates them from individuals with lower ability in some areas.

    These arguments don't prevent me from thinking that we should invest more as a society in non-academic career paths and work to improve the prospects of careers not involving academic education. I'm all for improving support for people with autism and offering other routes into various technical careers. We undermine our examination systems if we not do have universal requirements however.
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    NB. I think it's possible to critique the entire notion of examinations - there are plenty of interesting discussions to be had about alternative methods of assessment - but just to be clear they are inherently there is measure attainment, not progress or potential.

    Why do people think that many qualification have a coursework and a written exam element?
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    (Original post by Des_Lumières)
    What would constitue an 'illegitimate reason'? Well (according to me), perhaps people with ADHD and autism need to accept their limitations and focus on their strengths. If someone could make a case for the specific link between autism and the need for extra time I'd be interested to hear it. I've spent much time with individuals with autism over the years and as far I as can tell individuals with the condition may have impaired functioning in some respects and sometimes augmented in others. (It's swings and roundabouts.) I do not see what differentiates them from individuals with lower ability in some areas.
    Then you'd know it's a spectrum and we're all different. I need extra reading time due to my Autism because it can take several attempts for me to read and fully understand the question properly. It has nothing to do with lower ability. If I don't get extra time, I risk running out of time and won't be able to perform to the best of my abilities. How is that really fair?

    If I am given a question which has a few paragraphs, I have to read the paragraphs a few times and highlight the keywords to ensure I fully take in what I really need to.

    One serious problem for me, is how I understand language. So, if there are questions which have things like methaphors and similies, (even simple ones) I have to read them several times to ensure I really understand what the question is really asking.

    And that's even before we go into my sight impairments, which means I read much slower than other people (it takes much more effort for me to read - even with large print) and I need rest breaks because reading is physically tiring.
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    (Original post by Tiger Rag)
    Then you'd know it's a spectrum and we're all different. I need extra reading time due to my Autism because it can take several attempts for me to read and fully understand the question properly. It has nothing to do with lower ability. If I don't get extra time, I risk running out of time and won't be able to perform to the best of my abilities. How is that really fair?

    If I am given a question which has a few paragraphs, I have to read the paragraphs a few times and highlight the keywords to ensure I fully take in what I really need to.

    One serious problem for me, is how I understand language. So, if there are questions which have things like methaphors and similies, (even simple ones) I have to read them several times to ensure I really understand what the question is really asking.

    And that's even before we go into my sight impairments, which means I read much slower than other people (it takes much more effort for me to read - even with large print) and I need rest breaks because reading is physically tiring.
    Examinations are measuring attainment - understanding the set questions is a part of this. If one cannot understand in sufficient time what is being asked of one then this will quite clearly have a detrimental effect on individual attainment. I commiserate that this is hard to accept however it is a reality of an exam based system (and is true for everyone).

    If exams were seeking to measure potential it would be very different. In that case it would be necessary to look to measure every student's potential; this would mean dramatic changes to this system. It might involve: more ongoing assessment, interviews, positive marking, and a radical curriculum geared to fit around individual interests, higher levels one to one support for all, and more project based work. This is not where we are at yet although it is perhaps a very interesting direction to take in the future (I am in the camp in favour of this way of working). In the meantime we must ensure that system we do have fulfils its design to greatest extent possible. [You may be interested in researching the Finnish education system for more information about innovations along these lines made there.]

    Potential does not - however arguably unfair this is - come into assessment by exams as they currently operate. Written papers are a snapshot of an individual's present abilities. If you've heard of triangulation then you will recognise how limited testing people in this way is even just in the sense of not repeating the test. There are other drawbacks too. However, if we have to test everyone in the most equal way possible within the limitations of this system we must admit the need for identical requirements for all candidates. We undermine the integrity of the entire system for it is worth when we make skills based concessions; I'm not sure that we are currently in a position to endanger the functionality of the only system we have. Better maintain it whilst developing new ways of teaching, learning and assessment to graduate in over time.

    As for your example, in many instances the ability to understand figurative language enters into one's overall ability within an area. In some cases it is essential to performance. Not being able to do this in the context of an exam sometimes means not fulfilling the criteria of assessment. Everyone currently has to bend to fit the exam shaped holes - some more than others - but really the system should bend for the students.

    Of course, a visual impairments should warrant necessary support. I'm sorry if you feel offended by my views on this topic.
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    It is fair. What is unfair is that it is possible to run out of time in exams full stop. That doesn't test understanding - which if I'm not wrong is the point of an exam - it tests the speed at which you can recall knowledge. Exams should provide more than enough time for them to be complete, regardless of who it is sitting the exam.
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    (Original post by k4l397)
    It is fair. What is unfair is that it is possible to run out of time in exams full stop. That doesn't test understanding - which if I'm not wrong is the point of an exam - it tests the speed at which you can recall knowledge. Exams should provide more than enough time for them to be complete, regardless of who it is sitting the exam.
    I guess exams also test how quickly you can understand.
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    (Original post by isitisisitis)
    I guess exams also test how quickly you can understand.
    Yeah true but I don't think it's a necessity to understand content quickly in a lot of cases though. Like taking 30 minutes extra to complete an exam to me doesn't seem like a bad thing to me and I don't think it reflects that someone wouldn't be able to do a job or be able to cope on a Uni course. Obviously when I say you shouldn't run out of time, I'm not suggesting an unlimited length exam, just a length of time that is more than what is considered 'enough time'. Adding 30 minutes to an exam imo would allow more people to show that they do actually understand the content.
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    Fair for the people who have a genuine difficulty writing/ reading/ processing etc. But 1. a lot of people lie to get extra time, and 2. you can almost make up a meaningless category in which to place your difficulty and gain extra time. This isn't fair.

    Sometimes feel like agreeing with the people who say that the world isn't fair so everyone should be subject to the same exam times, but maybe that isn't considerate to specific needs...
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    (Original post by richpanda)
    No, it's completely unfair. That's not even counting the thousands of people who are perfectly capable but get extra time!
    A student doesn't simply ask for it, they have to referred by one of their teachers. Then you have to go through an assessment, in order to qualify. I've been through the assessment of getting extra time and it isn't as simple as having it handed to you. People are often very capable in class, without the pressure of a time restraint and actual exams. It's also not just slow handwriting, slower cognitive processing that qualify people for extra time. Anxiety, heightened by exams can be a contributing factor.

    If students didn't need it, then they wouldn't be given it.
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    (Original post by claireestelle)
    Yes it is. To get extra time you generally need something which is a proven disadvantage, it is literally there to level the playing field and as far as i know they've made it harder to get since i did gcse's . For me, I write at half the speed of most people and process information more slowly so if I didnt have it my grades would have been lower than what I m actually capable of.
    Not necessarily true

    My friend couldn't write very quickly (not disabled, but genuinely just can't write quickly) - so he got extra time in ALL his exams including MCQ exams, computerised exams, viva examinations etc where he had no disadvantage whatsoever.
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    (Original post by k4l397)
    Yeah true but I don't think it's a necessity to understand content quickly in a lot of cases though. Like taking 30 minutes extra to complete an exam to me doesn't seem like a bad thing to me and I don't think it reflects that someone wouldn't be able to do a job or be able to cope on a Uni course. Obviously when I say you shouldn't run out of time, I'm not suggesting an unlimited length exam, just a length of time that is more than what is considered 'enough time'. Adding 30 minutes to an exam imo would allow more people to show that they do actually understand the content.
    I agree with you. A sliding scale would be good where people who needed it could get a specific amount of extra time.
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    I have a learning disability and if it was not for my access arrangements (extra time, reader, smaller room) I would of possibly failed some of my exams. If you think it is unfair try living in my shoes where I can hardly read my own writing, lots of words get me confused and i get panic attacks if there is too much noise. Yes some people who don't need it get it but it is becoming harder as the school has to provide evidence.
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    (Original post by ab2468)
    no, as someone said above, after finishing education you don't get extra time so why should you get it at school. Also lots of people with extra time really don't need and as the tests for it are easy to fail on purpose.
    "Tests are easy to fail on purpose" actually they are harder to fail than most people think, particularly when it comes to getting extra time at University where a full diagnostic report is required. The practitioner performing the diagnostic sub-tests will supply at least two sub tests for each identified area of weakened as such you have to perform badly on both sub tests. This said unless you know which cognitive skill each sub test is testing that is really quite hard to fake. And if you think doing badly on all sub tests works it does not as this then does not hilight a specific difficulty it just says your stupid or that you tried to fake the tests and yes I have seen someone with a diagnostic report saying they were trying to fake as such no extra time recommended. So again I would be careful with the claim the tests are easy to fail- no it is not impossible to purposely fail them but it does take a certain amount of times inside knowledge.
    This said this does not apply to extra time in school as a full diagnostic report is not required- although many people do go this route.
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    (Original post by isitisisitis)
    I agree with you. A sliding scale would be good where people who needed it could get a specific amount of extra time.
    The issue with this is that it becomes a logistical nightmare for the JCQ to arrange as each application for extra time would have to be individually checked where currently it is done by a computer system unless the extra time exceeds the standard 25%- hence in school a set a amount is given if you meet certain criteria. However many universities do it on a sliding scale where the assessing practitioner recommends the percentage, as such my firm choice has awarded me more extra time than I get in my A level.
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    (Original post by surina16)
    No. Most of the people don't deserve it and fail the tests on purpose, but because it's such a stupid system, they get granted the extra time, do amazingly well in all their exams, and then boost up the grade boundaries for the rest.
    I also agree with the above posts about no extra time at any other point in life.
    You jealous? I get extra time and get all A*s so I one of those people that push up the grade boundaries for the likes of you LOL.
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    (Original post by Tinka99)
    Curious about your thoughts.
    (Original post by truemiscer)
    no, as you don't get extra for a job and you cannot compare like for like between people.
    (Original post by ab2468)
    no, as someone said above, after finishing education you don't get extra time so why should you get it at school. Also lots of people with extra time really don't need and as the tests for it are easy to fail on purpose.
    I've got dyslexia, and part of that means I've got a slower processing speed than normal people and I write slower so I get a laptop and extra time, but also that when I get to uni and work I have the right to ask for leeway for deadlines because quote "I will have significant difficulty in trying to meet deadlines". But that doesn't put me at a large disadvantage for jobs because I have a very very high IQ which is, in part, to do with my dyslexia, along with a load of other things I can't do but other things that I am much better at.

    You need to be assessed by an educational psychologist for extra time, so there's nobody who "doesn't need it".
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    (Original post by the IT MAN)
    You jealous? I get extra time and get all A*s so I one of those people that push up the grade boundaries for the likes of you LOL.
    Great, have fun in the real world when there is no extra time. Hit me up in ten years if you need some help
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    (Original post by alllostrevisers)
    A student doesn't simply ask for it, they have to referred by one of their teachers. Then you have to go through an assessment, in order to qualify. I've been through the assessment of getting extra time and it isn't as simple as having it handed to you. People are often very capable in class, without the pressure of a time restraint and actual exams. It's also not just slow handwriting, slower cognitive processing that qualify people for extra time. Anxiety, heightened by exams can be a contributing factor.

    If students didn't need it, then they wouldn't be given it.
    There's a doctor where I live and if you pay him he will give you evidence towards having extra time, so there is a fair amount of corruption in the system...
    If you have a genuine need then fair enough, but sadly a lot of the time people take advantage in every way then can and then it becomes unfair for everyone
 
 
 
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