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Palestine or Israel Watch

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    Palestine
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    67.00%
    Israel
    55
    27.09%
    I don't know
    12
    5.91%

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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    If the tables were turned,do you believe Palestinians would treat Israel as badly as they are doing to the Palestinians?
    Their leadership certainly would, yeah.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Their leadership certainly would, yeah.
    Assumptions assumptions
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Assumptions assumptions
    It's a pretty educated speculation, I'd say.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Don't ask the question if you're only willing to hear one answer. :dontknow:
    I never even asked you, habibi. We don't have be answer to that question so in the meantime it's just assumptions because Israel is doing the oppressing
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I never even asked you, habibi. We don't have be answer to that question so in the meantime it's just assumptions because Israel is doing the oppressing
    By 'assumptions', do you mean that I'm speculating? If so, then that's hardly something to complain about, given that you asked a hypothetical question, even if it wasn't directed at me. The answer to a hypothetical question is always going to be speculative to some degree, but, as I've mentioned in my edit (which clearly wasn't quick enough), it's an educated speculation.

    It's undeniable (and very far from an 'assumption') that Hamas isn't an organisation that would tolerate Israeli Jews if the balance of power was turned. To admit that is not the equivalent of excusing Israel's crimes.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I never even asked you, habibi. We don't have be answer to that question so in the meantime it's just assumptions because Israel is doing the oppressing
    True, I'm certainly no fan of some of the Palestinian leadership but the answer to a group of people being oppressed is not to speculate on how they would behave if they were not living in oppression, it's about how to resolve the situation. It would certainly have been counter-productive to speculate how Black South Africans would behave if they were not living under apartheid as opposed to how to end the apartheid, though I'm sure that some people still did this at the time.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    From our past conversations as well
    My efforts to educate you, and to encourage you to see the other side in any argument, do not represent bias, dear :rolleyes:

    who is the oppressor and who is being oppressed
    Formerly Arabs-Jews, and laterly, Jews-Arabs, in the territory today known as 'Israel'

    (Original post by queen-bee)
    The paragraph where you talk about the ahl al dhimmah
    Quote the part where I stated/implied those things were justified

    If the tables were turned,do you believe Palestinians would treat Israel as badly as they are doing to the Palestinians?
    God only knows. They democratically elected a terrorist organisation to administer their territory so you wouldn't rule anything out

    People forget that Arabs and Jews used to live side by side in complete harmony
    In certain areas, during certain periods, there was relative peace, with Jews, and other groups, observing subordinate status in relation to Arab Muslims (hence dhimmi). Few would describe that as 'harmony', however, in truth

    Let's just pray instead
    More like it :hmmm:
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    True, I'm certainly no fan of some of the Palestinian leadership but the answer to a group of people being oppressed is not to speculate on how they would behave if they were not living in oppression, it's about how to resolve the situation. It would certainly have been counter-productive to speculate how Black South Africans would behave if they were not living under apartheid as opposed to how to end the apartheid, though I'm sure that some people still did this at the time.
    It was a question I was just posing in response to foo's post but this isn't about a competition. This about real people,who are having their relatives murdered on a daily basis,some aren't even allowed to return home to where they grew up or having their homes bulldozed to make way for illegal settlements. You're not the only one who has been asking that question and yet here we are in 2016,with no solution to the crisis
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Assumptions assumptions
    When asked whether he thought a Jewish minority would be treated fairly in a binational state, Said replied that "it worries me a great deal. The question of what is going to be the fate of the Jews is very difficult for me. I really don't know."

    Edward Said said that

    Along with that the Middle East and North Africa are officially the most antisemitic places on earth.

    With the Palestinian Territories the most antisemitic part of the most antisemitic part.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    By 'assumptions', do you mean that I'm speculating? If so, then that's hardly something to complain about, given that you asked a hypothetical question, even if it wasn't directed at me. The answer to a hypothetical question is always going to be speculative to some degree, but, as I've mentioned in my edit (which clearly wasn't quick enough), it's an educated speculation.

    It's undeniable (and very far from an 'assumption') that Hamas isn't an organisation that would tolerate Israeli Jews if the balance of power was turned. To admit that is not the equivalent of excusing Israel's crimes.
    Nobody said it's the equivalent. Hamas is just as bad as Israel,maybe Israel the lesser of two evils but just as bad.
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    (Original post by garfeeled)
    When asked whether he thought a Jewish minority would be treated fairly in a binational state, Said replied that "it worries me a great deal. The question of what is going to be the fate of the Jews is very difficult for me. I really don't know."

    Edward Said said that

    Along with that the Middle East and North Africa are officially the most antisemitic places on earth.

    With the Palestinian Territories the most antisemitic part of the most antisemitic part.
    Even if Hamas were removed from power? And they had a tolerant leader on both sides?
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    It was a question I was just posing in response to foo's post but this isn't about a competition. This about real people,who are having their relatives murdered on a daily basis,some aren't even allowed to return home to where they grew up or having their homes bulldozed to make way for illegal settlements. You're not the only one who has been asking that question and yet here we are in 2016,with no solution to the crisis
    I was agreeing with you. I don't like it when people start to ask about how the Palestinians would behave if the tables were turned because it's almost like a justification and detracts from addressing the root of the problem.
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    My efforts to educate you, and to encourage you to see the other side in any argument, do not represent bias, dear :rolleyes:

    Formerly Arabs-Jews, and laterly, Jews-Arabs, in the territory today known as 'Israel'

    Quote the part where I stated/implied those things were justified

    God only knows. They democratically elected a terrorist organisation to administer their territory so you wouldn't rule anything out

    In certain areas, during certain periods, there was relative peace, with Jews, and other groups, observing subordinate status in relation to Arab Muslims (hence dhimmi). Few would describe that as 'harmony', however, in truth

    More like it :hmmm:
    I know that and I've actually thanked you in the past for opening my eyes,have I not?

    I never said you said those things were justified. That was a general statement I was making about excuses used to justify israel's killings,nothing to do with what you've told me

    Perhaps,aye

    But there was peace,was there not?

    I'm a good Christian Girl and I try my best to follow in the footsteps of Christ but some things I am just so passionate about and yes it conflicts with certain aspects of my religion but it doesn't make me any less Christian as one person on this thread has judged me to be or any less pious
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    (Original post by WBZ144)
    I was agreeing with you. I don't like it when people start to ask about how the Palestinians would behave if the tables were turned because it's almost like a justification and detracts from addressing the root of the problem.
    I know,Hun. The question is,why can't we just find a solution and finally get to the bottom of this!!! The extent to which some people will go to,just to justify killings of innocent civilians,like the boys on the beach,remember the ones who got shot at last year? Some people were actually justifying this,sickening
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Nobody said it's the equivalent.
    You said that my position that Hamas would likely treat the Israelis the same/worse than Israel treats the Palestinians was an assumption, and asked me to refocus on the fact that, currently, Israel is doing the oppression.

    I presumed that you said this because you thought that holding the position that Hamas would be equally worse if it had Israel's resources somehow implied that Israel's crimes are justified, hence my clarification. If not, why would you attempt to justify your view that what I said about Hamas is an assumption by using the fact that Israel is guilty of war crimes? It doesn't make sense.

    Hamas is just as bad as Israel,maybe Israel the lesser of two evils but just as bad.
    Thank you for conceding that, since you were calling that an assumption just moments ago.
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Even if Hamas were removed from power? And they had a tolerant leader on both sides?
    See that would be a brilliant situation. The extremes on both sides losing their voice and a middle and accepting leader on both sides. The issue is that would require either the extremes on both sides actually becoming less common or for them to give up trying to influence things. And I don't see that happening anytime soon. The ultra zionists are always going to believe they have some right to the land even (though in my experience it's more especially) if it means trampling on Arabs whilst the Islamists will always believe their system of governance is divine and will always be offended by the mere existance of non Muslim ( especially Jewish) state.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    You said that my position that Hamas would likely treat the Israelis the same/worse than Israel treats the Palestinians was an assumption, and asked me to refocus on the fact that, currently, Israel is doing the oppression.

    I presumed that you said this because you thought that holding the position that Hamas would be equally worse if it had Israel's resources somehow implied that Israel's crimes are justified, hence my clarification. If not, why would you attempt to justify your view that what I said about Hamas is an assumption by using the fact that Israel is guilty of war crimes? It doesn't make sense.



    Thank you for conceding that, since you were calling that an assumption just moments ago.
    I didn't mention any particular party or did I specifically mention Hamas as being the ones in power first? That is why o said assumptions assumptions because I thought you had gone on to just assume all Arabs are antisemites. Hamas may be leading Gaza but what if they were no longer in power? What if there was a new leadership? We already know Israel is doing the oppressing but so is Hamas.

    I didn't mention Hamas,again,you choose to jump to the conclusion that I was talking about them. I didn't give you any specifics. I could've been talking about a free thinking and tolerant leader for the Palestinians for all you know and actually I've never denied that Hamas were a terrorist organisation. If you look throughout this thread,before you've even quoted me tonight you'll see
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    (Original post by garfeeled)
    See that would be a brilliant situation. The extremes on both sides losing their voice and a middle and accepting leader on both sides. The issue is that would require either the extremes on both sides actually becoming less common or for them to give up trying to influence things. And I don't see that happening anytime soon. The ultra zionists are always going to believe they have some right to the land even (though in my experience it's more especially) if it means trampling on Arabs whilst the Islamists will always believe their system of governance is divine and will always be offended by the mere existance of non Muslim ( especially Jewish) state.
    So maybe a two state solution is the only real solution to the problem?
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I know,Hun. The question is,why can't we just find a solution and finally get to the bottom of this!!! The extent to which some people will go to,just to justify killings of innocent civilians,like the boys on the beach,remember the ones who got shot at last year? Some people were actually justifying this,sickening
    I know, it's draining at times
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    So maybe a two state solution is the only real solution to the problem?
    In my opinion it's certainly far more preferable than a one state solution (at least in the current state things are in) but I don't see it coming about any time soon. A popular revolution is needed to remove Hamas and isreal won't allow that sort of thing to happen (not stating they want Hamas in power but a popular revolution will be chaos enough to result in greater attacks against isreal which isreal will respond with crushing force that they usually do) and that will either keep Hamas in power or heaven forbidden bring about a more extreme leading party.

    A part of me things that the only way forward is through extreme action, as in a three state solution with Egypt and Jordan. Some governments supportive of a palastinian state coming in amd taking power from the extremists and going to active on the ground efforts to eradicate them. But truth be that isn't going to work either.

    It's a whole lotta mess that I don't think has a clear solution. There's an uncertainty principle to the whole thing and it gives people valid reason to resist change.
 
 
 
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