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    (Original post by Retired_Messiah)
    It just sounds to me like you've found a bunch of problems with society and constructed some sort of bogeyman-mega-hitler that embodies all of them at once. If you work to fix all the individual issues, you've gotten rid of "the patriarchy". The big overarching thing you've made up is unnecessary.

    My view of the concept has gone from nonsense to pointless. I'm not sure if that means you're making progress towards convincing me of anything or not...hm
    I stand with my earlier point that not everything should be taken at a face value. Regardless of the "patriarchy" aspect of my argument, my final point is that I believe in equality for both (or should I say ALL) genders and don't just care about "female issues". Feminism may connote harmful messages to you but to me, without feminism, I would have a distinctly different, far less happy life so therefore I believe in it completely and whole heartedly. After all, it means gender equality not gender inequality and it may hold different meanings to individuals but that's my thought on it.
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    Again, the responses here only go to show how much feminism glosses over any male issues. It's why I say feminism being about equality is BS. Here are stats posted by someone in the other thread. Can any female here HONESTLY tell me that we hear anywhere near as much about these issues as we do about 'the gender pay gap'?

    *note - from my own reading these last few days, and my own work experience, I do think the 'gender pay gap' is massively blown out of proportion and I think there are genuine reasons for it (women taking time out of work, often being less ambitious in the workplace on average etc). I personally have never seen women held back in the workplace and know many female senior managers, parnters, directors etc. I've even seen preference for women in the workplace and recently I've read that women up to a certain age (around about the average time of motherhood) actually earn more than men. So if this is the best that feminists have then I really do wonder. Anyway....the stats:


    Unsheltered Homeless (2009)
    Women – 12,000 – 4%
    Men – 240,000 – 96%
    (it is possible that men are more likely to be homeless than women is because they are less likely to use drugs or become alcoholic as their behaviour is more likely to be controlled and judged. it is not news that most homeless people are in their position due to substance abuse. Due to women being socialised at a younger age that their actions are more likely to be judged they are less likely to take part in this behaviour.)

    Life Expectancy (2006)
    Women – 80.8 Years
    Men – 75.7 Years

    this is way too small a difference in percentage and peoples life expectancy is based to how well they take care of their bodies. men are allowed to consume more calories in a day due to societies incorrect assumption that the anatomy of males and females is wildly different. if anything i guess this could be the reason, whihc would just show that there isnt that much of a biological difference between men and women.

    Suicides (2008)
    Women – 7,585 - 19%
    Men – 28,450 - 81%

    The rate of nonlethal suicidal behavior is 40 to 60 percent higher in women than it is in men. This is due to the fact that more women are diagnosed as depressed than men, and also that depression is correlated with suicide attempts.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender...ces_in_suicide

    however, men are more likely to be successful ergo the result you see above

    Deaths by Homicide (2004)
    Women – 3,856 – 20%
    Men – 14,717 – 80%

    you can hardly blame anyone, let alone women, for men being more likely to be killed. the only explanation i can offer is that men are more likely to be in violent situations due to societies socialisation that men can only express themselves though violence whilst women are expected to express themselves through tears and emotion

    Deaths from Cancer (2004)
    Women – 269,819
    Men – 290,069

    again, this can be blamed on no one and also there really isnt even that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things which is why you haven't included a percentage

    Deaths from HIV/AIDS (2004)
    Women – 3,357
    Men – 8,756

    ???

    Federal Funds for Sex Specific Cancer Research
    Women – Breast Cancer – $631,000,000 - 40,000 Deaths
    Men – Prostate Cancer – $300,000,000 - 33,000 Deaths

    pretty sure these are american figure, america is known to be messed up which is evident by peoples decision to vote for an idiot like trump. also im pretty sure these are linked to people donations and people donate to causes with a lot of media attention and the media give this a lot of attention because of stars like angelina jolie and their support of this. not a societal issue, if more male celebrity talked about prostate cancer issue would be resolved

    Deaths on the Job (2010)
    Women – 355 - 7%
    Men – 4,192 - 93%

    men are more likely to be in jobs such as construction due to societies negative association with women who would like to be in such professions and are therefore bullied and persuaded from pursing their goals

    Injuries on the Job (2007)
    Women – 36%
    Men – 64%

    see above

    College Enrolment (2009)
    Women – 58% - 11,658,000
    Men – 42% - 8,770,000

    these statistics are pretty damn close and its up to peoples personal choice to pursue an education

    Affirmative Action Education Programs (Gender Specific)
    Women – Yes
    Men – No

    men have a history of getting good jobs therefore affirmative action is needed. that would be like having affirmative action for white people were the majority of jobs are given to white people

    Unemployment Rates (2010)
    Women – 8.6% – 6,199,000
    Men – 10.5% - 8,626,000

    Average Hours Worked Per Week (2010)
    Women – 36.1
    Men – 40.2

    High School Graduation Rates (2005)
    Women – 72%
    Men – 65%

    Incarceration Rates (2009)
    Women – 114,979 - 7%
    Men – 1,502,490 - 93%

    if women are treated more leniently, it may beacuse their crimes are less serious. Steven Box found that women are more likely to commit crime such as soplifting which is unlikly to get them sent to prision.

    Women – 11,268,000 custodial mothers
    Men – 2,907,000 custodial fathers

    this is an issue that have been fought by liberal feminists who argue that by the courts giving women custody most of the time they are reasserting the belief that its a woman's job to be the caregiver to children

    US Military Deaths From 1950 – 2010
    Women – 139 - 0.001%
    Men – 100,063 - 99.99%

    another issue fought for by women as they are not being allowed to serve the army due to societies view of them as weak. it is worth noting that women have not always been allowed to fight in wars, therefore making this another feminist issue (for a guy who doesn't believe in feminism, you sure are raising a lot of feminist issues.'

    Federally Funded Battered Shelters
    Women – 2,000+ $300,000,000 per year
    Men – None – $0

    battered shelter are not seperated by gender, im pretty sure they are for anyone who has experienced domestic abuse

    Federally Funded Health Offices and Research 1970 – Present (not including cancer research)
    Women Only – Office, Projects and Programs 70+ – Funds – $100,000,000,000
    Men Only – None – $0

    again this makes no sense as apart from cancer there are no illnesses that are experienced by only one of the genders

    Forced Selective Service
    Women – No
    Men – Yes
    Throughout history, women have been excluded from professional fighting. This was once fairly justified, as men pack on muscle more readily, and patriarchal social structures ensured that women accomplished mostly domestic tasks.Centuries of these attitudes have resulted in the institutional view that women are soft, in need of protection, and incapable of the cold-blooded violence required of trained killers. Even though many of us live in a society where women can pursue the same opportunities as men, government-sanctioned killing is still largely off-limits to the fairer sex.

    Women did fight against the discriminatory nature of Selective Service registration in the 1980s & the Supreme Court shot it down.

    Drug and Alcohol Addiction and Abuse Rates (2010)
    Women – 5.8%
    Men – 12.2%

    Divorce filings
    Women - 85%
    Men - 15%

    so this demonstrates that society is sexist towards men... how exactly?

    Doctor Degrees(2010)
    Women - 51.6%
    Men - 48.4%

    Master’s Degrees(2010)
    Women - 60.3%
    Men - 39.7%

    Receive Alimony
    Women: 97%
    Men: 3%?
    this is linked with divorce, if more men filled for divorce, more men would receive alimony but they don't. which is their decision

    Edit - I think it is fair to say that if even a few of these stats favoured men over women, we would never hear the end of it.
    i refused to comment on some of the point either because the percentages were too close or because i had already explained it in an earlier comment
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    (Original post by nomnomnomm)
    i'm not say they're good my dude, but if you're trying to use that to argue against feminism then that's silly
    these stats show me that there's been some progress for women, which is great. i doubt that's been detrimental to men - you don't see any men being fired so that more women can come in, because of course that's ridiculous
    what questions?
    what issues? of course we hear about these things... how else do you think i know that more men commit suicide on average than women? and that a pretty significant percentage of people with eating disorders are men? do you really think everyone only ever talks about women? what's with your whole "EVERYBODY HATES MEN" thing?
    what about my questions? what about gay or trans people?
    why are you so narrowly focused on the issue of men vs women?
    why are your stats so.... old....

    also - about the gender pay gap:
    http://inequality.stanford.edu/_medi...r_research.pdf
    entire paper for you, have fun
    My question was whether or not any feminist can honestly tell me that we hear anywhere near as much about these issues affecting men (some of them very serious) as we do about feminist issues (like the supposed gender pay gap).

    Tbh i'm finding it hard not to shake my head at your posts but it doels supoort my belief that when feminists state that they care just as much about male issues, they"re lying through their teeth.

    Trans rights, gay rights..i'm fully supportive of. One of my best friends in school came out to me as gay before anyone else and I was one of the only people who didn't give a damn (this was 15 years ago when things were harder for gay men than they are now).

    What I can't stand is that all we hear about is this society and the media is feminism with regards to sexism, particularly when so much of it is simply not true. It is very wrong and more and more men suffer as a result. And please don't state otherwise when one look at those stats says that men are dying and going homeless every day without anywhere near the attention that it would get if such things were to happen to women.
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    The question asks whether feminism is useless in first world, or MEDC countries (I can't be bothered to read all of the 15 page responses). My opinion is that the core concept of gender equality is a good one, just the image that feminism has in MEDC's such as the UK has become so perverted that feminism is indeed useless as shown by the number of women in the UK and USA who associate themselves has fallen.
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    (Original post by ElizaCupcake)
    i refused to comment on some of the point either because the percentages were too close or because i had already explained it in an earlier comment
    I appreciate that you've taken the time to respond but clearly you arenjust speculating over reasons. Where are the studies? Where are the media articles and where is the outrage that so many men die, are homeless, get less health funding etc...i can tell you one thing, we hear way, way more about 'the gender pay gap'. Again I think you are oversimplifying things greatly ...i want to write a proper response but I'm out on my phone (hence all my spelling mistakes). Regardless of what I think, there isn't anywhere near as much focus on mens issues...women are all for feminism but don't really genuinely want to hear about how many men are disadvantaged. There are so, so many double standards. Positive discrimination in favour of women promoted by feminism is such BS...how about we positively discriminate against women and start housing more men and leaving women on the streets and then see how fair people think it is. (Clearly i'm not actually suggesting that)
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    My question was whether or not any feminist can honestly tell me that we hear anywhere near as much about these issues affecting men (some of them very serious) as we do about feminist issues (like the supposed gender pay gap).

    Tbh i'm finding it hard not to shake my head at your posts but it doels supoort my belief that when feminists state that they care just as much about male issues, they"re lying through their teeth.

    Trans rights, gay rights..i'm fully supportive of. One of my best friends in school came out to me as gay before anyone else and I was one of the only people who didn't give a damn (this was 15 years ago when things were harder for gay men than they are now).

    What I can't stand is that all we hear about is this society and the media is feminism with regards to sexism, particularly when so much of it is simply not true. It is very wrong and more and more men suffer as a result. And please don't state otherwise when one look at those stats says that men are dying and going homeless every day without anywhere near the attention that it would get if such things were to happen to women.
    yes, we hear about the issues affecting men just as much as women. you're acting as if news outlets are controlled by this mysterious overlord bent on making it so no one ever cares about men, ever

    why are you so bent on making it look as if feminists actively oppress men? why are you so frightened of being left out? i can't speak for every feminist, but i guarantee you that on the whole the movement cares for men just as much as women, because often the issues affecting women are tied to those affecting men - e.g. toxic masculinity which is an issue that affects both genders.

    it's good that we agree on trans and gay rights at least

    how do you know it isn't true? you've been complaining about how the wage gap doesn't exist but you haven't said a word about the solid evidence i've given you (an academic paper, nothing biased) proving that it does, in fact, exist.
    you're making it sound as if feminism is actively harming men which is just... so silly. sometimes it focuses on women, yes, but that's because historically women have faced more discrimination than men.
    whether that's true now in the western world, i don't know, but that certainly doesn't mean that feminism isn't needed. stop saying that no one talks about men's problems, because that's wrong - people talk about these things just as much as they talk about women's issues.

    more about men and eating disorders - on BBC, a major news site
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...edical-experts
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    (Original post by nomnomnomm)
    yes, we hear about the issues affecting men just as much as women.

    but i guarantee you that on the whole the movement cares for men just as much as women
    Sorry but before anything else, both of these points are quite simply not true.
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    Sorry but before anything else, both of these points are quite simply not true.
    why not?
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    (Original post by nomnomnomm)
    why not?
    I don't think even you believe what you have written. Nobody can genuinely tell me that we hear anywhere near as much about issues affecting men as we do those affecting women.

    You tell me where any of the issues affecting men shown in those stats is represented here...on a section about 'sexism' by our great british broadcaster..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/topics/sexism

    As for feminism caring for men just as much as women, that is what feminists often claim (when confronted), but the reality and the focus of their arguments tell a very different story. There are literally hundreds of quite laughable videos all over youtube of men's rights activists challenging feminists and the last line of defence is always 'but we care about men too' - yet they spend all their time talking about anything but the issues affecting men. Also, off topic, the double standards they demonstrate are often just painful to watch.
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    I don't think even you believe what you have written. Nobody can genuinely tell me that we hear anywhere near as much about issues affecting men as we do those affecting women.

    You tell me where any of the issues affecting men shown in those stats is represented here...on a section about 'sexism' by our great british broadcaster..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/topics/sexism

    As for feminism caring for men just as much as women, that is what feminists often claim (when confronted), but the reality and the focus of their arguments tell a very different story. There are literally hundreds of quite laughable videos all over youtube of men's rights activists challenging feminists and the last line of defence is always 'but we care about men too' - yet they spend all their time talking about anything but the issues affecting men. Also, off topic, the double standards they demonstrate are often just painful to watch.
    i do believe what i've written. well, i'm telling you that we hear about the problems affecting both men and women, in equal proportions.

    (still no word about that paper on the wage gap?)

    why are you watching MRA videos in the first place? of course it's not going to present an accurate image of what feminism actually does, because they're biased.
    well, what else are we supposed to say? seeing as you're always accusing us of "hating men"
    what double standards?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...ing-on-streets
    same site you linked to - the BBC does listen to men as well
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    (Original post by anna__)
    Given the fact that in my first month of living in Cologne I had 6 derogotary comments (at least) made towards me and was even grabbed, and invited back to a random mans house whilst sat on the tube minding my own business, I do not think its pointless. At all. We live in such a backwards society.
    If this happened to a man they would laughed at, in the end of the day its criminal behaviour its illegal and seen as immoral so what can Feminism do about it?The reason this behaviour happens is extremely simply nasty men with a high sex drive, neither of these things Feminism can fix so this can never change.Its like if you are a criminal and want to steal something then you will steal something feminism can't defeat either evil or desire.
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    (Original post by nomnomnomm)
    i do believe what i've written. well, i'm telling you that we hear about the problems affecting both men and women, in equal proportions.

    (still no word about that paper on the wage gap?)

    why are you watching MRA videos in the first place? of course it's not going to present an accurate image of what feminism actually does, because they're biased.
    well, what else are we supposed to say? seeing as you're always accusing us of "hating men"
    what double standards?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...ing-on-streets
    same site you linked to - the BBC does listen to men as well

    Out of 24 articles on that BBC website about sexism, there is ONE article (which you have quoted), about a male 'celebrity' claiming double standards. I asked where the articles were referencing the quite serious issues which the stats on this thread show affect men. The answer is that they are not there. Instead, the BBC feels it more important to talk about whether Andy Murray has a female tennis coach. I did write to them the other day actually asking if they realised their own sexism and absence of coverage of mens issues but I'm not expecting an answer. They just perpetuate the myth that women have things tougher when it's probably quite the opposite these days. All I can say is that if you really believe that men's rights are given as much attention as women's then you're wrong. I still think that you're being dishonest about it because its staring your right in the face.

    The gender pay gap..honestly i haven't even clicked your link. 1) Because we haven't got that far, I picked you up on two points which just are not true and 2) I'm sick of hearing about it...like i said, in 12 years of my own working experience I've never witnessed it once and i've worked both public and private sector. In public sector i don't even see how it is possible since pay grades are pay grades. I've had many female senior managers and they had no issue getting 'to the top'. My ex girlfriend earns 180k a year,. She is 32. She never once had issues. Perhaps maybe somewhere in a private corprorate firm in London there are a couple of toffs who will pay men more because they're men and can play golf together, but I think these days it is pretty unlikely, especially as human resources tend to be dominated by women. Instead i think it is far more likely that there are legitimate reasons for any supposed gap. In the videos I've seen the men's rights activists cut the feminists down pretty quick when the issue comes up.

    Do a search for an article by Karin Agness titled "Don't buy into the gender pay gap myth" if you want to hear it from a woman. Whatever your stance on it, even if you believe it is real, it's disgusting how much attention it gets compared to issues like men...dying.
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    Out of 24 articles on that BBC website about sexism, there is ONE article (which you have quoted), about a male 'celebrity' claiming double standards. I asked where the articles were referencing the quite serious issues which the stats on this thread show affect men. The answer is that they are not there. Instead, the BBC feels it more important to talk about whether Andy Murray has a female tennis coach. I did write to them the other day actually asking if they realised their own sexism and absence of coverage of mens issues but I'm not expecting an answer. They just perpetuate the myth that women have things tougher when it's probably quite the opposite these days. All I can say is that if you really believe that men's rights are given as much attention as women's then you're wrong. I still think that you're being dishonest about it because its staring your right in the face.

    The gender pay gap..honestly i haven't even clicked your link. 1) Because we haven't got that far, I picked you up on two points which just are not true and 2) I'm sick of hearing about it...like i said, in 12 years of my own working experience I've never witnessed it once and i've worked both public and private sector. In public sector i don't even see how it is possible since pay grades are pay grades. I've had many female senior managers and they had no issue getting 'to the top'. My ex girlfriend earns 180k a year,. She is 32. She never once had issues. Perhaps maybe somewhere in a private corprorate firm in London there are a couple of toffs who will pay men more because they're men and can play golf together, but I think these days it is pretty unlikely, especially as human resources tend to be dominated by women. Instead i think it is far more likely that there are legitimate reasons for any supposed gap. In the videos I've seen the men's rights activists cut the feminists down pretty quick when the issue comes up.

    Do a search for an article by Karin Agness titled "Don't buy into the gender pay gap myth" if you want to hear it from a woman. Whatever your stance on it, even if you believe it is real, it's disgusting how much attention it gets compared to issues like men...dying.
    A different source to debunk the pay gap is Christina hoff sommers.
    https://youtu.be/58arQIr882w
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    (Original post by NeoMarxist)
    Yes! It's not just about eradicating female issues, it's about creating equality! How many times do I have to repeat myself? If there was equality, I'm sure more men would get custody and more male rape victims will feel conformable to come forward etc. You cannot define feminism as whatever you want. It's about gender equality and that's all.
    Well at present their not rape victims because the law is skewed in favour of women. There's no logical reason that feminism would help fix the inequalities that men face


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    (Original post by NeoMarxist)
    Yes! It's not just about eradicating female issues, it's about creating equality! How many times do I have to repeat myself? If there was equality, I'm sure more men would get custody and more male rape victims will feel conformable to come forward etc. You cannot define feminism as whatever you want. It's about gender equality and that's all.
    It's about women's rights by definition and actions
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    (Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
    Well, legally speaking, men and women are equal in the West. There are issues that disproportionately affect each gender, and there are still societal expectations based on gender. These should be addressed, but I do not think it makes sense to address them from a "feminist" perspective, as feminism has always operated under the assumption that women have lesser rights/opportunities to men. For a long time, it was true to an extent (although I would still challenge the rather naive and basic notion that up until recently women "had it worse"), now, the landscape is very different.


    Not quite true the Government changed the equality act to allow discrimination against men with all women shortlists for selection of candidates for MPs and rape laws mean that rape is only a crime against women a man can't be raped by a woman.

    I think that Feminism is both sexist against men and women, its sexist against men because they try to make things easier for women(like quotas) so that less skilled women should get the job instead of men but it is also sexist against women because they are trying to force women to do what they want, they hate women who are mothers and conform to their gender stereotype instead of doing a high earning career so that they can achieve 50:50 splits in all jobs.

    A lot of women like the equality Feminism has brought them in the past but they also do want to work less and look after their children more and Feminists are saying this is wrong you shouldn't be doing this.

    The main reason why things aren't how these modern Feminists would like is because of women's choices they are choosing to spend time looking after their children and study Arts instead of Sciences(and if they do do science then Biology instead of Physics).
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    (Original post by Dalek1099)

    Not quite true the Government changed the equality act to allow discrimination against men with all women shortlists for selection of candidates for MPs and rape laws mean that rape is only a crime against women a man can't be raped by a woman.
    Fair points, I guess I was just thinking about general rights. Positive discrimination is absurd, as to rape, I am not sure what the differences are between sexual assault sentencing and rape sentencing but either way that is something that ought to be addressed
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    (Original post by Dalek1099)

    Not quite true the Government changed the equality act to allow discrimination against men with all women shortlists for selection of candidates for MPs and rape laws mean that rape is only a crime against women a man can't be raped by a woman.
    Although it's true that a man can't be raped by a woman, I believe men can be raped by other men. I think the reason for this is that the definition of legal rape requires that the object doing the penetrating be a penis.


    The main reason why things aren't how these modern Feminists would like is because of women's choices they are choosing to spend time looking after their children and study Arts instead of Sciences(and if they do do science then Biology instead of Physics).
    Perhaps, but that leaves us with the very interesting question of why women spend their time differently. If it's ultimately down to societal pressures, gender-related stereotypes etc. etc. than we still have a problem.

    For example, the gender gap in STEM is pretty big - if I recall correctly, only 12-15% of STEM workers are female. If we could trace this imbalance all the way back to birth and show that the only reasons for its existence are biological factors e.g. hormones etc. associated with sex, then I don't see that there is a problem. But this hasn't been done, and to me at least it seems extraordinarily unlikely that the size of this gap can be accounted for completely by physiology and doesn't have anything to do with the ridiculous gender-based double standards society continuously imposes. So in my view, it really is still a problem even if it isn't the result of direct discrimination.
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    (Original post by Implication)
    Although it's true that a man can't be raped by a woman, I believe men can be raped by other men. I think the reason for this is that the definition of legal rape requires that the object doing the penetrating be a penis.




    Perhaps, but that leaves us with the very interesting question of why women spend their time differently. If it's ultimately down to societal pressures, gender-related stereotypes etc. etc. than we still have a problem.

    For example, the gender gap in STEM is pretty big - if I recall correctly, only 12-15% of STEM workers are female. If we could trace this imbalance all the way back to birth and show that the only reasons for its existence are biological factors e.g. hormones etc. associated with sex, then I don't see that there is a problem. But this hasn't been done, and to me at least it seems extraordinarily unlikely that the size of this gap can be accounted for completely by physiology and doesn't have anything to do with the ridiculous gender-based double standards society continuously imposes. So in my view, it really is still a problem even if it isn't the result of direct discrimination.
    Look at the nations where the number is around equal
    Mongolia (49% female researchers), Argentina (53%) Kazakhstan (52%)

    So no it isn't all because of biology it is down to the fact that when presented with the choice they tend to decide against it.

    Just like the reason 80% of the teaching workforce is female, including around 1 in 4 teachers.
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    (Original post by Dalek1099)


    A lot of women like the equality Feminism has brought them in the past but they also do want to work less and look after their children more and Feminists are saying this is wrong you shouldn't be doing this.

    The main reason why things aren't how these modern Feminists would like is because of women's choices they are choosing to spend time looking after their children and study Arts instead of Sciences(and if they do do science then Biology instead of Physics).
    It's an interesting point that feminism has probably also been bad for a lot of women in ways too. I mean, it's been worse on men, no question about that but I do wonder how happy some women are genuinely. I'm talking real happiness/life satisfaction.

    I've travelled a fair bit and when I go to countries like in central america I notice that although they are dangerous places (drug violence etc), people do on a day to day basis have strong values and respect for each other. The men do the traditional male things and the women do the traditional female things. There is a distinction between masculine and feminine but it works. There's a sort of respect that you don't see here. It was refreshing for me to go on nights out in those countries and see the men and women having a good time, dancing salsa together in an almost old fashioned (for here) way and the complete opposite of what now happens here post feminism.

    Masculine and feminine has become so blurred. Here you look around and the women are acting like men ('the ladette' thing), standing in groups, telling guys to f off unless they like how they look, drinking til they can't stand up, tattooed, walking home bare foot. It's actually pretty grim. And the guys, well, skinny jeans like women have worn for years, carefully placed hair, gym toned but only for the sake of appearance, whitened teeth, unnaturally tanned... that has become like the ideal. That is what women actually seem to like based on the idiots we get on reality TV..and of course, men follow that. Guys these days b*tch about each other and openly direspect each other knowing there can't be any consequences. Why? Because in our super safe society , physicality is no longer relevant. Chat sh*t in Guatemala and you'll soon know about it. I dunno.. I find it kinda depressing what has happened in our society. With our 50% divorce rates etc.. go to those countries and it's like 0.2 in 1000 divorces. The women are happy to be women and the men are happy to be men.
 
 
 
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