The Commons Bar Mk XIII - MHoC Chat Thread

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Four things that unis think matter more than league tables 08-12-2016
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    There seems to be a rather large conflation between capitalism, neoliberalism and libertarianism, with many on both the right and left essentially treating the three as synonyms with one another.

    When people say they are anti-capitalist, what they most likely mean is that they are anti neoliberalism or anti-libertarianism. For example, they would not be opposed to a shop keeper selling goods from different private companies (capitalism), but they would be opposed to the shop keeper paying his workers a pitiful salary (neoliberalism).
    I don't think that's a good way of looking at it- at times it is necessary to give your workers **** wages in order to be a successful capitalist- I think this is almost unavoidable without strong cultural forces - which is another reason why so many of the left have reexamined religion or/and aligned themselves with Islamists

    I think what also needs to be mentioned is the removal of ethics from both the political and economic sphere in the neoliberal model where individuals and states are always egotistical rational utility maximisers. Rakas and me are in agreeable that this is nonsense.

    This line if thinking also draws one to conspiracist conclusions about why certain actors do certain thing- case in point accepting refugees as an act of economic self interest- whilst I agree there is a level of virtue signalling there, I think they go too far here, but I am perhaps too much of ab optimist.

    Libertarianism is an inherently flawed ideology and it is based on an unwavering and unevidenced belief that the private sector is always better than the state and that governments should never interfere in the market.
    Although they usually do think it is more efficient, they usually highlight that it is better ethically in that little force is used.

    However most people who say they are Libertarian are very inconsistent. For example how many libertarians would argue that the police force, judiciary, armed forces and government should be privatised? How many libertarians would argue that it is wrong for our government to ban child workers or to prohibit companies from selling medicines without testing them first or even for our government to ban the purchasing of electoral votes?
    How many would say that governments shouldn't be setting interest rates?

    Libertarians by and large do accept that sometimes government is better and sometimes government intervention is needed, yet they pretend that they don't and therefore oppose state control of the health service and education etc.


    Secondly, it is based on a flawed assumption that humans are only selfish. Humans are selfish yes, but we are not 'only' selfish. With such an assumption they argue for insecure jobs on the basis that we can only be motivated to do a good job by fear of losing money.

    However, in Japan the structure of businesses is far more accommodating towards employees. They have far more secure contracts, they are encouraged to come up with ideas and treated with respect. They are far happier and more productive as a result. It's a similar story in countries such as Sweden. Humans have a selfish side, but they also have a side that likes to be appreciated, that likes security.

    Just a couple of points, I could go on.
    Yeah im in complete agreeable.

    Humans are capable of making structures which are co-operative and which we all benefit from- notably the NHS- which libertarians would sell out of principle.

    My main bug bear is their conception of freedom though. I'm in agreeance with Bentham that Natural rights are nonsense on stilts.
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    Maybe if it was a larger figure, say £2,000 now or £2,200 in three months, then I would say hell yeah wait the three months, but while £20 is a hell of a lot to me, I would likely take the £200. It's a bit like when I watch the chase, if you know the show, if I was to get say £6,000 in the cash builder and I was offered £20,000 or less as the top offer (increasing the risk of being caught and getting nothing) then I would stick to the £6,000, if the high offer was say £25,000 or £30,000 then I would take that risk, even though £6,000 is likely more than everything I own put together.

    As numbers get bigger, that 10% gets bigger, I would personally skip on the extra £20, but I do admit I have a slight immediate gratification streak at times.
    It's a fair point but as i alluded to in my discussion with B, from the point of view of an economic model that is an irrational answer (inflation is unlikely to rise 10% in the 3 months).
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    Good luck to anyone collecting GCSE results today.
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    Yougov survey just ask who the better politician is FARRAGE or TRUMP. how do you answer that
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Yougov survey just ask who the better politician is FARRAGE or TRUMP. how do you answer that
    I'd say Farage is a lot better than Trump. That doesn't mean I support Farage though.
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    Farage is a bit less of a twunt. Only just though.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Yougov survey just ask who the better politician is FARRAGE or TRUMP. how do you answer that
    Farage isn't great, but him over Trump any day. At least he's not a racist.
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    Farage isn't great, but him over Trump any day. At least he's not a racist.
    But are you sure about that. The way they talk about Muslims and Islam especially, there's virtually no difference at all, only trumps a little more open about it.

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    It is done.
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    But are you sure about that. The way they talk about Muslims and Islam especially, there's virtually no difference at all, only trumps a little more open about it.

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    The thing is Farage has never openly said anything explicitly racist, whereas Trump has (stuff like the Mexican judge situation), and Farage also appears to have realised that not every Muslim is a terrorist.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)


    It is done.
    Nein nein nein :fuhrer:
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)


    It is done.
    Shame there's not a 'neither' option.
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    asdad.png

    Hmmm wonder how that turned out.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Good luck to anyone collecting GCSE results today.
    What he said.
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    Anyone want to convince me to vote for Mr Smith or Mr Corbyn? I haven't voted yet.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Anyone want to convince me to vote for Mr Smith or Mr Corbyn? I haven't voted yet.
    Should just defect to the Lib Dems 👀


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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Anyone want to convince me to vote for Mr Smith or Mr Corbyn? I haven't voted yet.
    Love corbyn love life:yep:
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Anyone want to convince me to vote for Mr Smith or Mr Corbyn? I haven't voted yet.
    I'd like to convince you to vote for Mr Smith, but at this stage I think you should just read the statements (on the voting page), and see which one you agree with more.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    I'd like to convince you to vote for Mr Smith, but at this stage I think you should just read the statements (on the voting page), and see which one you agree with more.
    Can you post links to those?
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Can you post links to those?
    Unfortunately not, I can't easily find a link and as I've cast my vote, I can't return to that page.
 
 
 
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