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    (Original post by frankielogue)
    No, all of my many muslim friends accept homosexuality
    Except that you said that they don't completely accept it. For religious reasons.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Muhammad used the opportunity afforded by a small skirmish between some Bedouin, who were allies of the Quraysh, and some Muslims, to march on Mecca with an army of 10,000 and demand the submission of Mecca and its inhabitants.

    Does it not seem a little unwarranted to then order the killing of every polytheist who does not submit to Islam? You don't think that punishing a whole group for the actions of unrelated others is unjustified? It would be like ordering the death of every French Muslim because of the actions of the Charlie Hebdo attackers.

    You keep missing the main point. THE POLYTHEISTS BROKE THE TREATY.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Muhammad used the opportunity afforded by a small skirmish between some Bedouin, who were allies of the Quraysh, and some Muslims, to march on Mecca with an army of 10,000 and demand the submission of Mecca and its inhabitants.

    Does it not seem a little unwarranted to then order the killing of every polytheist who does not submit to Islam? You don't think that punishing a whole group for the actions of unrelated others is unjustified? It would be like ordering the death of every French Muslim because of the actions of the Charlie Hebdo attackers.
    And it wasn't a small skirmish. The allies of Quraysh killed the ally of the muslims
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    It has something to do with Islam, no one's denying that. But these attackers do not wake up one day and suddenly decide to kill in the name of Islam, they do it because their lives go wrong and they start sympathising with extremist groups just like ISIS. Its why if you actually do some research on the subject instead of preaching theoretical bigotry, you would realise that every single attacker since the Sydney Siege has a backstory and a history of petty theft, or being in a war-torn country, or being arrested and put in jail, or being discriminated against, or being pursued by the security services - etc... Its never them waking up and deciding to kill for Islam.

    And its pretty logical that yelling "allahu ackbar" is a media-aimed stunt to maximise the negative impact of their attack.

    Take a look at Rezgui (Tunisia beach attacker), he liked to drink and breakdance and was harmless according to his friends. But apparently yelling "allahu ackbar" is all you need to make it an Islamist terror attack. Its because racist bigots like you focus on the foreign culture as the problem, and you lack perspective on these peoples' lives and why they would become so predisposed towards violence.
    So in fact your absolutely incorrect. I can't believe you would think mainstream media is against Islam - in fact they take every turn to not blame these attacks on the religion of peace. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36800730 the BBC actually headlined that a lorry killed 84 people in Nice.

    But nah I'm glad you've finally come around and admitted that Islam is part of the problem. That's all I was trying to say in the first place. So can you explain why we don't see any Christians doing this when there are far more of them. Surely there are some Christians whose lives aren't going well right now but we don't see many of them doing suicide bombings?

    And to finish off, I love how whenever one of you Islam apologists are getting destroyed, the 'racist' or 'bigot' card comes out. A bigot is a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions and I've read your opinions and views and tried to counter argue them. A racist is a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another and I haven't discriminated against anyones skin colour as Islam is not a race - it's a belief system and surely if I can't criticise a belief system then there is something wrong
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    (Original post by Tongeyyy)
    So in fact your absolutely incorrect. I can't believe you would think mainstream media is against Islam - in fact they take every turn to not blame these attacks on the religion of peace. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36800730 the BBC actually headlined that a lorry killed 84 people in Nice.

    But nah I'm glad you've finally come around and admitted that Islam is part of the problem. That's all I was trying to say in the first place. So can you explain why we don't see any Christians doing this when there are far more of them. Surely there are some Christians whose lives aren't going well right now but we don't see many of them doing suicide bombings?

    And to finish off, I love how whenever one of you Islam apologists are getting destroyed, the 'racist' or 'bigot' card comes out. A bigot is a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions and I've read your opinions and views and tried to counter argue them. A racist is a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another and I haven't discriminated against anyones skin colour as Islam is not a race - it's a belief system and surely if I can't criticise a belief system then there is something wrong
    Its pretty simple why this problem is isolated to Islam - its because there are no other prominent terrorist groups that actively preach other religious groups to stand up and fight against non-believers. This process with ISIS and Muslims legitimises the hateful thoughts of some Muslims across the world, and it encourages them to carry out attacks in the name of ISIS. The reason for ISIS existing is because of the nature of the situation in the Middle East, with this four-way conflict in Syria, with an oppressive and destructive government, and failed foreign policy - a perfect catalyst for extremism and terrorism.

    Vice-verse, its equally hilarious that you people resort to "islamist apologist" when if you actually paid an ounce of attention, you'd realise I am equally critical of Islam as with all religions and I am apologising for no one.

    And its unwarranted to hate on beliefs built around a holy scripture written 1500 years ago for a completely different type of society - beliefs which have been adapted to fit with a modern lifestyle by many Muslims.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    And their attacks aren't in the name of Islam, they are in the name of political gain.

    Take the Bataclan attackers for example, they wanted revenge on France for airstrikes.
    You have obviously never read any statements by ISIS, especially the one concerning the Paris attacks. It is several paragraphs of overtly Islamist religious rhetoric, complete with justifying verses from the Quran. It explicitly states that the attack was in the name of Allah and Islam, against those who fight against Allah and Islam. Coincidentally, the Quran permits the killing of those who fight against Allah and Islam.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Its pretty simple why this problem is isolated to Islam - its because there are no other prominent terrorist groups that actively preach other religious groups to stand up and fight against non-believers. This process with ISIS and Muslims legitimises the hateful thoughts of some Muslims across the world, and it encourages them to carry out attacks in the name of ISIS. The reason for ISIS existing is because of the nature of the situation in the Middle East, with this four-way conflict in Syria, with an oppressive and destructive government, and failed foreign policy - a perfect catalyst for extremism and terrorism.

    Vice-verse, its equally hilarious that you people resort to "islamist apologist" when if you actually paid an ounce of attention, you'd realise I am equally critical of Islam as with all religions and I am apologising for no one.

    And its unwarranted to hate on beliefs built around a holy scripture written 1500 years ago for a completely different type of society - beliefs which have been adapted to fit with a modern lifestyle by many Muslims.
    Well no its not really hilarious is it because its what you actually are.... What you labelled me as was completely incorrect which is why its funny but you've offered an argument in defence of islam so you're an apologist. Nothing false there.

    And again you've backed up my original argument about there being a fundamental flaw in the teachings of the religion about killing non-believers and so on.

    And from the figures from the Pew reports, its clear that many muslims have adapted to modern western values but there is a large percentage across Europe and North America who clearly haven't with backwards beliefs that their religion preaches
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    (Original post by Tongeyyy)
    Well no its not really hilarious is it because its what you actually are.... What you labelled me as was completely incorrect which is why its funny but you've offered an argument in defence of islam so you're an apologist. Nothing false there.

    And again you've backed up my original argument about there being a fundamental flaw in the teachings of the religion about killing non-believers and so on.

    And from the figures from the Pew reports, its clear that many muslims have adapted to modern western values but there is a large percentage across Europe and North America who clearly haven't with backwards beliefs that their religion preaches
    I am defending innocent Muslims who are decent enough to adapt their religion so that it satisfies compatibility with the 21st century. I am not defending Islam, and as with all other religions, some of its concepts are very bigoted to me.

    And if you think "having backwards beliefs" is a problem, then you are a bigot, because their beliefs derive from another culture which they were born in, raised in and lived in. There are other parts of the world, you know. Its no different from a foreigner coming over here and saying that democratic capitalism is backwards, which arguably it is (in some ways).
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    I am defending innocent Muslims who are decent enough to adapt their religion so that it satisfies compatibility with the 21st century. I am not defending Islam, and as with all other religions, some of its concepts are very bigoted to me.

    And if you think "having backwards beliefs" is a problem, then you are a bigot, because their beliefs derive from another culture which they were born in, raised in and lived in. There are other parts of the world, you know. Its no different from a foreigner coming over here and saying that democratic capitalism is backwards, which arguably it is (in some ways).
    Wait... so it automatically makes me a bigot if I say someones beliefs are backwards? I'm a bigot if I have anything against a culture where honour killings of women are acceptable, a woman's view is half that of a man's and homosexuals are killed? So their culture where these things are acceptable should be tolerated by us is what you're basically trying to get at here.

    Some cultures are better than others
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    And their attacks aren't in the name of Islam, they are in the name of political gain.

    Take the Bataclan attackers for example, they wanted revenge on France for airstrikes.
    Good Lord
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    (Original post by Tongeyyy)
    Wait... so it automatically makes me a bigot if I say someones beliefs are backwards? I'm a bigot if I have anything against a culture where honour killings of women are acceptable, a woman's view is half that of a man's and homosexuals are killed? So their culture where these things are acceptable should be tolerated by us is what you're basically trying to get at here.

    Some cultures are better than others
    There is a fundamental difference between holding beliefs and being willing to act on those beliefs. The excessive majority of Muslims only fall into one of those categories, take a guess which it is.

    And regardless of whether 'cultures are better than others', its still a culture which some people have lived under their entire lives - do you think dancing around like a moron hating on it is going to make them convert to our own culture? LOL
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    (Original post by MMM1997)
    This treaty is the treaty of hudaybiyyah in which the polytheists were supposed to allow the Muslims to perform their pilgrimage and that they would leave the city for 3 days. The polytheists also agreed to no fighting which they then went against by attacking the Muslims allies. The polytheists set the conditions and they were the ones who broke it. And please do not make the assumption that I got this information from dawahganda websites and youtube videos. You haven't asked me what my sources are. As you said there is always mention of treachery and treaty breaking but there isn't anything specifically mentioned. Read up on the treaty of hudaybiyyah which was significant in the fact that it was completely in favour of the polytheists but it was the Muslims who benefitted most from it.
    The Meccans did not break the terms of the Treaty of Hudaybiyah. It was Muhammad who did that by refusing to allow the polytheists to continue thier hajj rituals.

    So, what are your sources?
    In "The Sealed Nectar", Mubarakpuri descibes how, on hearing of the skirmish between two minor, loosely connected tribes, the Quraysh leadership sent a deputation to Medina to ensure the continuation of the treaty (knowing that they could not risk war against the superior military power of the Muslims). Muhammad and his senior companions all refused to see him and instead made preparations for an invasion of Mecca.

    It is simply ridiculous to claim that the context of 9:5 was Muhammad defending himself against attack. It was made from a position of superiority with the aim of expanding his domain.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    There is a fundamental difference between holding beliefs and being willing to act on those beliefs. The excessive majority of Muslims only fall into one of those categories, take a guess which it is.

    And regardless of whether 'cultures are better than others', its still a culture which some people have lived under their entire lives - do you think dancing around like a moron hating on it is going to make them convert to our own culture? LOL
    Well take a guess at the only culture here in the UK that doesn't convert to ours when they emigrate here. Loads of other cultures such as Caribbeans, Jews and Sikhs have integrated and assimilated into our culture being from other alien cultures. Although most Muslims have, a sizeable minority think that there culture of rape and violence is acceptable here which is directly rooted from the teachings of Islam
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    (Original post by MMM1997)
    You keep missing the main point. THE POLYTHEISTS BROKE THE TREATY.
    So, because a minor tribe aligned with the Quraysh had a skirmish with another minor tribe aligned with the Muslims, it gave Muhammad the opportunity to invade Mecca and order an ethnic cleansing of the polytheists.

    Muhammad was not under attack, as you claimed was the only reason for the brutal genocide ordered in 9:5. In fact, the Quraysh leadership were desperate to keep the treaty going, but Muhammad refused to even discuss it, preferring war.

    Even if the entire Quraysh had publicly ripped up the treaty and physically attacked Medina (which isn't even suggested), it would still not justify the hunting down and killing of people purely on the basis of their religion.
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    (Original post by MMM1997)
    And it wasn't a small skirmish. The allies of Quraysh killed the ally of the muslims
    It was a small skirmish. Do you have any idea of the numbers of casualties involved in actions in those days? Even in the Battle of Badr (one of the most important of the period) it is estimated that only 14 Muslims were killed, and up to 70 Meccans. The largest number of casualties for the skirmish I have seen is 20. They were two minor tribes with a long history of enmity, even the most partisan Islamic sources describe it as a feud originating in pre-Islamic history. The Quraysh wanted to maintain the treaty. There was no attack on Muhammad or Medina, nor was there any attempt to prevent the Muslims from access to the sacred sites of Mecca.

    But you still see this as a justification of an invasion of Mecca with 10,000 men and for ordering the hunting down and killing of everyone who did not submit to Islam.

    Harsh much?
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    (Original post by Tongeyyy)
    So can you explain why we don't see any Christians doing this when there are far more of them. Surely there are some Christians whose lives aren't going well right now but we don't see many of them doing suicide bombings?
    He's been asked this question again and again for days now. Still no response. What he does is block anyone who effectively dismantles his arguments.
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    I cant see your response from 13 minutes ago @Alevelsstresss - Was it removed?
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    There is a fundamental difference between holding beliefs and being willing to act on those beliefs. The excessive majority of Muslims only fall into one of those categories, take a guess which it is.

    And regardless of whether 'cultures are better than others', its still a culture which some people have lived under their entire lives - do you think dancing around like a moron hating on it is going to make them convert to our own culture? LOL
    If all cultures are valid and cannot be condemned, and there is nothing wrong with holding bigoted beliefs (your argument), why have you spent dozens of pages on several threads condemning people for holding "bigoted beliefs" and condemning other cultures?

    Your argument is fundamentally self contradictory.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    He's been asked this question again and again for days now. Still no response. What he does is block anyone who effectively dismantles his arguments.
    Lol and he still uses the classic lefty wild card "bigot". He is the bigot if he is so engulfed by his own opinions that he chooses to ignore the elephant in the room, yet I hit back at all of his points and share my view and still get called it
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    (Original post by Tongeyyy)
    Well take a guess at the only culture here in the UK that doesn't convert to ours when they emigrate here. Loads of other cultures such as Caribbeans, Jews and Sikhs have integrated and assimilated into our culture being from other alien cultures. Although most Muslims have, a sizeable minority think that there culture of rape and violence is acceptable here which is directly rooted from the teachings of Islam
    where in the Quran is rape condoned?
 
 
 
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