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    (Original post by gazebo99)
    Well done, really well done! Mixing culture with religion. Where in islam does it say muslims cannot integrate with society? They just happen to be Muslims. Good comment mate, well done!
    The Quran repeatedly warns against taking non-Muslims as friends. Respected, modern day scholars confirm this.
    https://islamqa.info/en/59879
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    (Original post by QE2)
    With the omission of two, somewhat emotive words, this is pretty much the case in parts of many European cities.
    Can you give me an example?and Fox News's insightful report about how Birmingham is 100% Muslim isn't a reliable source, just in case you were wondering
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    (Original post by The_Opinion)
    Isn't the OP a Muslim that pretends to not be a Muslim?
    They claim not to be, so who are we to doubt them? It would be unthinkable for a Muslim apologist to use disingenuity and mendacity to promote a more favourable image of Islam that the one gained from simply reading the Quran, hadith and tafsir. Never happens.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Ah, I understand now.
    In the Middle East, where there is no Islamophobia, it is conflict that radicalises Muslims.
    In the west, where there is no conflict, it is Islamophobia that radicalises them.

    So, how do you explain those Islamist terrorists who come from stable, peaceful, Islamic countries? And why there was Islamist terrorism before the ME conflict, invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, and even before 9/11?

    All those apologists who blame military intervention, Islamophobia, etc for Islamist terrorism never answer this question.
    Care to have a go?
    Let me explain to you the process of radicalisation.

    1. We have a normal Muslim who is content with their lives.
    2. Something bad happens to their life, something 'bad' can be their country becoming war-torn, them becoming involved in petty theft/crime, them being imprisoned, them being persecuted.
    3. In response to this bad thing happening, they develop hateful feelings.
    4. The current atmosphere in the world of Islamophobia, racial violence and hatred is a perfect catalyst for these hateful feelings to develop sympathy for radicals.
    5. This sympathy leads to curiosity, which makes them malleable to what these groups say
    6. The individual becomes isolated from society, and believes the propaganda by extremist groups because it legitimises their hateful feelings.
    7. They join the group or commit an atrocity in the name of this group.

    As it is already obvious, religion is a tiny factor in this. The 'extremist groups' that these people resort to could just as easily be far right-wing or other terrorist groups, but it is Islamist extremists because of the way that they use social media and indoctrinate young people.

    So blaming religion is as stupid as blaming the computer monitors through which they find out about these extremists.

    Its not a case of these people waking up one day and deciding to kill in the name of Islam.
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    (Original post by lahorizon)
    Also I find it strange how when a priest was stabbed in France, people went ballistic (rightfully so). But no one batted an eyelid when an Imam was stabbed outside a mosque in New York. Funny how things work like that
    The french priest was not "stabbed", he was beheaded during his mass by two guys shouting "Allah Akbar!"

    How it is remotely comparable to the New York imam stabbed by someone who didn't express any political or religious motivations?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    So, you are saying that the Quran is ambiguous and open to interpretation, but only the peaceful interpretations are correct, despite it containing many literally violent, oppressive and discriminatory passages?

    Care to explain how that works?
    Answer my previous question please.

    Do you believe the 1.6 billion Muslims who evidently don't 'strike the heads off non-believers' are true Muslims?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    The fact that most westwrn Muslims happily ignore much of Islamic ideology has no bearing on how compatible the ideology is with western liberal secular ideals - because that compatibility is rarely tested.
    However, when Muslims do adhere dogmatically to Islamic ideology, the incompatibility is all too clear.

    You seem unable to address these issues with any sense of nuance or critical analysis. Are you quite young? This kind of "black and white" attacking of straw men, and generalising from personal experience is quite common amongst those taking their first steps into socio-politico-religious debate.
    Don't be discouraged. You will get better.
    Are you kidding? The fact that most western Muslims readily adapt Islam and combine it with western society is a straight-forward example of this. You're just chatting ****.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Are you kidding? The fact that most western Muslims readily adapt Islam and combine it with western society is a straight-forward example of this. You're just chatting ****.
    He is not kidding. He is right. You are the one chatting ****.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    what is the boundary between "hating" and "criticising"?
    A better question yet what is wrong with hate? It is simply an emotion and no one actually has a right to enforce laws on your emotions. How you act out of your emotions is another matter.

    The proportion of Muslims who resort to terrorism is miniscule and the proportion of haters who commit actual crimes is also miniscule.

    There are barely a handful of real hate crimes that happen each year and moat of the real crimes that do happen are petty amd stupid.

    Meanwhile we have thousands of real crimes of all sorts happening each week. These crimes are motivated by everything such as greed and so on. In comparison, crimes originating from hate or dislike of Islam are a drop in the ocean. Unless you make those things a real crime to. Then you have a crimetsunami with tens of millions of criminals.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    does it matter? both are condemned by the Quran, you probably can get away with kissing a man in Turkey, expect dirty looks from the locals, but you wont be thrown in prison lol
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36973314

    "We complained to the police headquarters but nothing happened," he said.
    Another of Mr Sankari's friends, Diya, said the United Nations was also failing to protect the gay community in Turkey.

    You the man Alevelstress
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Let me explain to you the process of radicalisation.
    You're the expert now are you?

    Anywho, I have said this previously "don't question them, it will make them more mad" - appeasement. That has never gone wrong, has it.
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    (Original post by an_atheist)
    Fundamentalists take the literal interpretation of the words in front of them. No manipulation at all, its just that we dont like what happens when people do so, so people call those who do such things extreme and say they are taking things ou of context, when they are just followng the literal interpretation of the teachings
    So if I told you to 'go break a leg' you would literally go and break someone's leg? Taking the literal meaning with no a) context b) understanding c) knowledge of the language and d) ignoring that phrases don't always mean the words they consist of, is not representative of what it actually means. 'Go break a leg' means 'perform well', in the context of a musical or theatrical performance, not to go injure people.
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    (Original post by WhereIsTheLove??)
    x
    "Many Muslims are ordinary, peaceful people who just want to get on with their lives, therefore Islam is a peaceful deology".

    "Many racists/fascists/Marxists/etc are ordinary, peaceful people who just want to get on with their lives, therefore racism/fascism/Marxism/etc are peaceful ideologies".

    Hope that helped.
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    (Original post by MrControversial)
    In comparison, crimes originating from hate or dislike of Islam are a drop in the ocean. Unless you make those things a real crime to..
    Hate speech is a crime.
    Racism and bigotry are crimes.
    Discrimination is a crime.

    All of these can stem from hate of Islam - I've been the target of all of them - and all are dealt with harshly by the law. And anyone who makes statements like 'all Muslims are terrorists' are breaking the law.
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    (Original post by otah007)
    So if I told you to 'go break a leg' you would literally go and break someone's leg? Taking the literal meaning with no a) context b) understanding c) knowledge of the language and d) ignoring that phrases don't always mean the words they consist of, is not representative of what it actually means. 'Go break a leg' means 'perform well', in the context of a musical or theatrical performance, not to go injure people.
    So in the Quran "go kill the infidel" means "love those denying ol' Mo as much as Mo himself". Or "take female sex slaves" means "treat the women in captured lands like your mothers".

    Really good to know. One question though, who provided this context? Coz ol' Mo for sure didn't. His real life example was a much more literal reading of the Quran than all this "context" you are talking about.
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    (Original post by otah007)
    Hate speech is a crime.
    Racism and bigotry are crimes.
    Discrimination is a crime.

    All of these can stem from hate of Islam - I've been the target of all of them - and all are dealt with harshly by the law. And anyone who makes statements like 'all Muslims are terrorists' are breaking the law.
    The problem is not whether it is illegal or not. Hate crime remains an ambiguous allegation and one that is up for interpretation. I just find it ironic that Islamic bigots who claim that apostates should be killed, are often not punished under hate crime laws.
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    (Original post by otah007)
    Hate speech is a crime.
    Racism and bigotry are crimes.
    Discrimination is a crime.

    All of these can stem from hate of Islam - I've been the target of all of them - and all are dealt with harshly by the law. And anyone who makes statements like 'all Muslims are terrorists' are breaking the law.
    I am not one to always ask for sources given this is a debate and not a factual research paper.

    But I would LOVE to see the law that specifically says "saying 'all Muslims are terrorists' is a criminal offence".
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    They aren't 'wholly incompatible', we have millions of Muslims living in Europe, the UK and the USA who have never done a harmful thing to their society.
    .
    And we have millions of women subjected to this cult that suffer every day

    Being forced into arranged marriages and Burkas, not even being allowed to date who they want. They can't even show their own face in public without their Husband exiling them from the family and kicking them from the house.

    this is not democracy, these women stuck in this enviroment are helpless.
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    (Original post by otah007)
    So if I told you to 'go break a leg' you would literally go and break someone's leg? Taking the literal meaning with no a) context b) understanding c) knowledge of the language and d) ignoring that phrases don't always mean the words they consist of, is not representative of what it actually means. 'Go break a leg' means 'perform well', in the context of a musical or theatrical performance, not to go injure people.
    Indeed , we all know that well known jovial phrase "Therefore strike off their heads (of the unbelievers) and strike off every fingertip of them " is often misinterpreted when in ancient arabia it simply meant 'good luck in your next competitive camel race'
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    (Original post by otah007)
    So if I told you to 'go break a leg' you would literally go and break someone's leg? Taking the literal meaning with no a) context b) understanding c) knowledge of the language and d) ignoring that phrases don't always mean the words they consist of, is not representative of what it actually means. 'Go break a leg' means 'perform well', in the context of a musical or theatrical performance, not to go injure people.
    'kill em all'

    but loved this one 'phrases don't always mean the words they consist of'

    Now that takes a special mind.
 
 
 
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