Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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pane123
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#2981
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#2981
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
Well the fans of the recently deceased Rangers were not too happy about it! We see England as our footballing rivals why would we like it.
Rangers still exist. I'm not asking you to like it, but the constant whining gets boring.

When you say 'we', to whom do you refer? I am Scottish and do not come under your definition of 'we'.
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CartoonHeart
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#2982
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#2982
For absolutely anybody who is interested in the original thread, my essay didn't even get written. I dropped economics and completely forgot I started this thread. LOL!
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MatureStudent36
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#2983
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#2983
(Original post by punani)
That particular bubble never needed bursting.

If you cannot envisage a better future for yourself and your fellow citizens, then what is the point? Should we just stand aside and watch our country continue to move in a direction that only benefits a tiny minority of us at the expense of the rest of us? I don't think wanting to live in a fairer, more equitable society counts as being extremely left-wing.
I can envisage a better future, I also realise that the present isn't that bad. What I can't imagine is destroying my future after a dream that can't be financed.

I live in a fare society already. We look after our elderly, our infirm, our poor. We give education to those that want it and supply universal healthcare to everybody. I don'[t get persecuted for my beliefs, religion, creed or colour.

Although you'd hate to say it and see it, we've actually recently started to address the gap between rich and poor.

Do we still have problems? Yes. But nothing that can't get sorted out with a stronger economy. But every indication is our economy would nosedive following the SNPs dream. That doesn't help things. That makes it worse.

So basically the SNP is offering us a cure for the sickness, by killing the patient. Thanks but no thanks.


I inevitably tend to find though emotive comments such as the ones you spout are driven by greed. You see what others have after working hard for it, and want it without the effort of work. That's why the SNPs 'Its our Oil' campaign had limited success. It wrapped up the base human desire of greed with a warm fluffy feeling.
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Left Hand Drive
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#2984
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#2984
(Original post by pane123)
Rangers still exist. I'm not asking you to like it, but the constant whining gets boring.

When you say 'we', to whom do you refer? I am Scottish and do not come under your definition of 'we'.
Don't be silly that club is being liquidated and therefore dead.

In general I mean. maybe it doesn't apply to you, but for the majority of tartan army members it does.
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pane123
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#2985
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#2985
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
Don't be silly that club is being liquidated and therefore dead.

In general I mean. maybe it doesn't apply to you, but for the majority of tartan army members it does.
This isn't the thread in which to discuss Rangers, but anyone who claims the club no longer exists is an idiot. It exists, end of story. Debating this would be like debating what colour the sky is.
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punani
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#2986
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#2986
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I can envisage a better future, I also realise that the present isn't that bad. What I can't imagine is destroying my future after a dream that can't be financed.
A tad melodramatic.

I live in a fare society already. We look after our elderly, our infirm, our poor. We give education to those that want it and supply universal healthcare to everybody. I don'[t get persecuted for my beliefs, religion, creed or colour.
This is a joke right?

Although you'd hate to say it and see it, we've actually recently started to address the gap between rich and poor.
Is this your stand up routine from the fringe or something? They must have being rolling in the aisles.

Do we still have problems? Yes. But nothing that can't get sorted out with a stronger economy. But every indication is our economy would nosedive following the SNPs dream. That doesn't help things. That makes it worse.
What indications are these?

So basically the SNP is offering us a cure for the sickness, by killing the patient. Thanks but no thanks.
I suppose this analysis is based on the same indications as above?

I inevitably tend to find though emotive comments such as the ones you spout are driven by greed. You see what others have after working hard for it, and want it without the effort of work.
So everyone who would like to see a more equitable society is greedy?

Everyone who is rich has worked hard for their money?

Everyone who is poor hasn't worked hard enough?

Everyone who believes in progressive taxation is feckless?

That's why the SNPs 'Its our Oil' campaign had limited success. It wrapped up the base human desire of greed with a warm fluffy feeling.
Is this the same campaign that saw them go from 1 MP to 11?

This can't be the same campaign that saw them increase their share of the vote from 11.4% to 30.4% can it?
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Maths Tutor
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#2987
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#2987
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Which anti Scottish Racism would that be?
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You'll have to expand n that. Maths Tutor was claiming that the media is anti Scottish. I was

merely asking how. I don't get what you're trying to say.
(Original post by MatureStudent36)


And yes, I am having difficulty understanding your posts as they don't seem to make any sense.

Tell me, what part of that did you not understand?:



(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Which Illegal wars? I'm assuming that you're talking about Iraq that hasn't been declared

illegal that we went to wih a Scottish born PM, a Scottish Chancellor and an overly Scottish represented cabinet.
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
UK government ministers are there to (mis)rule the UK - They are not there to bat for England,

Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland depending on their origin.

Blair was not even representing a Scottish constituency at Westminster.

It is PURE RACISM to talk about the Englishness, Scottishness, Welshness or Irishness of UK government ministers in

this context.

The same anti-Scottish racism as displayed by the British media:

Whenever Andy Murray won he was 'British', whenever he lost he was 'Scottish'.

Are you attributing all good and bad things that "overly Scottish represented cabinet" did to the 'Scottishness' of those

Ministers?

Why do the likes of you pull out this 'Scottishness' of UK ministers only when talking about unpopular things?

(Original post by Copperknickers)
The double standards inherent in the view that, because Scottish politicians are over-represented in Westminster (arguably, I wouldn't tend to agree), Scotland's interests are also overrepresented. As said above, MPs are there to debate British policy, not Scottish, so unless you can come up with a real conspiracy among Scottish MPs to procure something beneficial to Scotland at the cost of the rest of the UK, then your line of criticism is totally specious and ridiculous.
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Maths Tutor
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#2988
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#2988
(Original post by Aj12)
Most Scots seem to want Nuclear weapons, as does Salmond, he wants nuclear weapons or he would not want to join NATO, it amounts to the same thing. HE just does not want to pay for them but wants the benefits
What total nonsense.

Funny that TSR can provide links to biased polls in the anti-Independence Telegraph, but ban links to articles on the pro-Independence Wings over Scotland website which expose your lies.

How many member states of NATO have nuclear weapons on their territory?

Salmond wants nuclear weapons in Scotland? Provide a single link to where and when he has said that.

Are you the TSR moderator who removed my posts which included links to articles on W O S?
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Left Hand Drive
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#2989
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#2989
(Original post by pane123)
This isn't the thread in which to discuss Rangers, but anyone who claims the club no longer exists is an idiot. It exists, end of story. Debating this would be like debating what colour the sky is.

Well the fans who supported the dead club says it exists and the fans of the the rest of Scotland say its dead. because it was liquidated
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Aj12
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#2990
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#2990
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
What total nonsense.

Funny that TSR can provide links to biased polls in the anti-Independence Telegraph, but ban links to articles on the pro-Independence Wings over Scotland website which expose your lies.

How many member states of NATO have nuclear weapons on their territory?

Salmond wants nuclear weapons in Scotland? Provide a single link to where and when he has said that.

Are you the TSR moderator who removed my posts which included links to articles on W O S?
He does not have to want nuclear weapons on his territory. He wants to join an alliance that has nuclear weapons at the heart of it and a nuclear umbrella for all members. If Scotland is so opposed to the idea of nuclear weapons why does the SNP want to join NATO?

We don't discuss moderation matters in the public forum please go to Ask a Moderator if you have an issue
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pane123
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#2991
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#2991
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
Well the fans who supported the dead club says it exists and the fans of the the rest of Scotland say its dead. because it was liquidated
Not quite. Intelligent people know it exists, thick and bitter people claim it doesn't. If enough idiots say the same thing over and over, they will eventually believe it.

I guess it's similar to all these pro independence folk who can't really form an argument beyond 'look at Norway'. It just shows a complete lack of original thought, and, in this case, a denial of fact. Oh, what ignorance!
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Blue Meltwater
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#2992
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#2992
(Original post by Aj12)
He does not have to want nuclear weapons on his territory. He wants to join an alliance that has nuclear weapons at the heart of it and a nuclear umbrella for all members. If Scotland is so opposed to the idea of nuclear weapons why does the SNP want to join NATO?
I suspect it's about trying to offer the greatest reassurance to the Scottish people that we'd be secure in every aspect - in this case, that we'd have adequate defence. I suppose my [partially uninformed] argument would be that countries like Ireland and Sweden have managed to go decades of non-membership without facing imminent attack.
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Joeman560
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#2993
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#2993
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
What ****. Don't most no campaigners accept Scotland would do well as an independent nation?
No.
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Blue Meltwater
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#2994
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#2994
I briefly walked through the independence march in Edinburgh today. As my first real experience of a proper political march, I was very impressed by its carnival-like energy. Was also intrigued to see quite a few Catalan flags around.
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Left Hand Drive
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#2995
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#2995
(Original post by Joeman560)
No.
Well you ought to listen to the leaders of the No campaign...
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Left Hand Drive
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#2996
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#2996
The march looked really good from what I saw!


I really hope we all vote yes, we have such a great chance to change how our nation is run for the better!

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Maths Tutor
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#2997
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#2997
(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
I briefly walked through the independence march in Edinburgh today. As my first real experience of a proper political march, I was very impressed by its carnival-like energy. Was also intrigued to see quite a few Catalan flags around.

(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
The march looked really good from what I saw!


I really hope we all vote yes, we have such a great chance to change how our nation is run for the better!

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Scotland WILL vote YES on the 18th of September 2014.

Remain positive and spread the postive message.

Don't be dejected by the anti-Independence posters on this thread, most of whom don't even live in Scotland and don't care about Scotland - only their own self interest, which is mainly British Nationalist jingoism.
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Maths Tutor
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#2998
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#2998
(Original post by Aj12)
Most Scots seem to want Nuclear weapons, as does Salmond, he wants nuclear weapons or he would not want to join NATO, it amounts to the same thing. HE just does not want to pay for them but wants the benefits

(Original post by Maths Tutor)
What total nonsense.

Funny that TSR can provide links to biased polls in the anti-Independence Telegraph, but ban links to articles on the pro-Independence Wings over Scotland website which expose your lies.

How many member states of NATO have nuclear weapons on their territory?

Salmond wants nuclear weapons in Scotland? Provide a single link to where and when he has said that.

Are you the TSR moderator who removed my posts which included links to articles on W O S?

(Original post by Aj12)
He does not have to want nuclear weapons on his territory. He wants to join an alliance that has nuclear weapons at the heart of it and a nuclear umbrella for all members. If Scotland is so opposed to the idea of nuclear weapons why does the SNP want to join NATO?

You had claimed that Salmond WANTS nuclear weapons. That is a TOTAL LIE. Provide a single link where he has said he wants them.

Nuclear weapons and NATO DO NOT AMOUNT TO THE SAME THING: The vast majority of NATO member states DO NOT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS ON THEIR TERRITORY.

Salmond and the SNP have made it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that they want a NUCLEAR FREE SCOTLAND.

So if NATO says no membership without nuclear weapons, then so be it:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-twist-in-the-tale/

The SNP wants Scotland to remain a member of NATO because it seems that a majority in Scotland favours NATO membership.

You expect the SNP to form the first government in Independent Scotland right?

Irrespective of the biased Tory Ashcroft poll in the anti-Independence Telegraph you point to, the indications are that a majority in Scotland is in favour of getting rid of nuclear weapons.

I myself would prefer Independent Scotland to be OUT OF NATO.

As Blue Meltwater has said above, Ireland and Sweden are happy to be outside NATO.

I would also mention another non-NATO country - Finland - which has a massive land border with Russia and was not afraid even in the time of the USSR and the Cold War.



(Original post by Aj12)
We don't discuss moderation matters in the public forum please go to Ask a Moderator if you have an issue
I did, but did not get a reply and have to point this out publicly:

TSR has joined the anti-Independence media, which amounts to 100% of the UK media with the BBC being the Leader of the Pack.

TSR removed posts which had provided links to articles in the pro-Independence website 'Wings over Scotland' which exposed the lies and propaganda of 'No Scotland' and a couple of prominent anti-Independence posters on this thread.

If TSR was balanced, it should have also removed links to articles in the anti-Independence media:

BBC / The Scotsman / The Mail / The Express / The Herald / The Times / The Telegraph / The Guardian / The Record / The Sun.
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clareramos
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#2999
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#2999
Being married to a Scot and going up there quite a bit, Scotland won't become independent, majority of Scots don't want it, and it is the 'clan chief' so to speak who seems to be saying something that many people don't want.
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Aj12
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#3000
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#3000
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
You had claimed that Salmond WANTS nuclear weapons. That is a TOTAL LIE. Provide a single link where he has said he wants them.

Nuclear weapons and NATO DO NOT AMOUNT TO THE SAME THING: The vast majority of NATO member states DO NOT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS ON THEIR TERRITORY.

Salmond and the SNP have made it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that they want a NUCLEAR FREE SCOTLAND.

So if NATO says no membership without nuclear weapons, then so be it:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-twist-in-the-tale/

The SNP wants Scotland to remain a member of NATO because it seems that a majority in Scotland favours NATO membership.

You expect the SNP to form the first government in Independent Scotland right?

Irrespective of the biased Tory Ashcroft poll in the anti-Independence Telegraph you point to, the indications are that a majority in Scotland is in favour of getting rid of nuclear weapons.

I myself would prefer Independent Scotland to be OUT OF NATO.

As Blue Meltwater has said above, Ireland and Sweden are happy to be outside NATO.

I would also mention another non-NATO country - Finland - which has a massive land border with Russia and was not afraid even in the time of the USSR and the Cold War.





I did, but did not get a reply and have to point this out publicly:

TSR has joined the anti-Independence media, which amounts to 100% of the UK media with the BBC being the Leader of the Pack.

TSR removed posts which had provided links to articles in the pro-Independence website 'Wings over Scotland' which exposed the lies and propaganda of 'No Scotland' and a couple of prominent anti-Independence posters on this thread.

If TSR was balanced, it should have also removed links to articles in the anti-Independence media:

BBC / The Scotsman / The Mail / The Express / The Herald / The Times / The Telegraph / The Guardian / The Record / The Sun.
He wants to join an alliance based around nuclear weapons and nuclear deterrence, simply put he is endorsing nuclear weapons. How can you be opposed to nuclear weapons if you then want to be under a nuclear umbrella. Given NATO's defence doctrine based around nuclear weapons being a part of NATO endorses a nuclear based defensive strategy. Salmond clearly supports the idea of nuclear deterrence despite not wanting to pay for the cost of it.

From what I can see you did get a reply so I'd suggest checking the thread again and if this was not satisfactory to you then post again in your thread. I won't be discussing this further in this thread.
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