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    (Original post by lizziec1996)
    Please could someone explain in simple terms why this conflict has arisen
    im so confused by it
    Israel wants to get rid of HAMAS, a democratically elected party, because it refuses to acknowledge the existence of Israel.

    Therefore, Israel practises collective punishment upon the Palestinians through various means in order for them to capitulate.

    This latest round is simply another attempt at achieving that.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    They sparked off a conflict to fill their coffers from Gulf state donations and get some credibility back by "fighting the Jews".
    Could you inform us how exactly they did this?
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    Just came across this:

    Picture says it all really.
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    Latest reports putting the cost of the Gaza operation anywhere between 5 billion - 12 billion shekels.

    Using the upper estimate, that's nearly £2.06 bn...


    The average enlisted soldier in the IDF only gets paid 847 shekels a week. That is truly shocking stuff.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Hamas were running low on funds, popularity and relevance.

    If it's one thing they hate, it's being irrelevant and broke.

    They sparked off a conflict to fill their coffers from Gulf state donations and get some credibility back by "fighting the Jews".

    Civilian deaths are their political currency to use as leverage.
    Umm I don't know much about this either and this may be a stupid question but why did Israel retaliate? Supposing that Hamas stayed all this to get money then why play along? I understand that the iron done prevents any damage to civilians...
    Be nice. I'm off a fragile deposition. Please don't insult my intelligence or say something about the media having corrupted me. Please and thank you
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    (Original post by FishLover)
    Umm I don't know much about this either and this may be a stupid question but why did Israel retaliate? Supposing that Hamas stayed all this to get money then why play along? I understand that the iron done prevents any damage to civilians...
    Be nice. I'm off a fragile deposition. Please don't insult my intelligence or say something about the media having corrupted me. Please and thank you
    Well, initially Israel didn't play along. It was roughly two weeks before Israel retaliated to the rocket fire. They made public warnings that if the rocket fire didn't stop, then retaliatory strikes would commence.

    Iron Dome is not full proof and the people still need to run to shelters.

    As the rocket fire intensified and reached dozens a day - this makes life intolerable for citizens as they're running in and out of shelters. The schools have to be closed etc.

    The economy suffers and obviously there's also a principle at stake with a moral obligation for any government to protect their citizens.

    After commencing air strikes, Israel said if rocket fire stops - they will stop.

    Israel then gave a further warning saying that if rocket fire doesn't stop, a ground invasion would be necessary. Rockets continued to pour in - up to 150 per day on some days.

    Hence ground invasion.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I've numbered your incorrect statements for ease of reference, hope you don't mind.

    (1) Assuming you are not so stupid as to be referring to any event after 1948: In 1948 there was a pretty big war and during wars those not involved tend to try and run away. There were incidents during that war when Israelis tried to make Palestinians leave. There was also a well documented call from Arab generals for Arabs to leave the area to make it easier to destroy the nascent Israel and return later. There is no support for claims that there was a policy or attempt at ethnic cleansing.

    (2) The UK had already promised Israel as a homeland to the Jews in the 20s and the League of Nations likewise before the second world war

    (3) They didn't "give away" in the sense that they handed over private ownership to someone else. They handed over sovereignty which they were perfectly entitled to do.

    (4) By the time of the UN's partition plan there were hundreds of thousands of Jews living there too
    (1) Ethnic cleansing might not be the best word but it's definition is "the mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic (or religious) group in an area by those of another." I might be wrong but that definition fits for what I've seen, read and heard.

    (2) My mistake with the date.

    (3) They were entitled to it but it doesn't make it right, it was a stupid move. It's not okay to give someone land for just them that isn't empty.

    (4) Sure, along with hundreds of thousands of non-Jews. It doesn't change the fact that people were already living there.

    And thanks.
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    (Original post by flyyoufools)
    (1) Ethnic cleansing might not be the best word but it's definition is "the mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic (or religious) group in an area by those of another." I might be wrong but that definition fits for what I've seen, read and heard.

    (2) My mistake with the date.

    (3) They were entitled to it but it doesn't make it right, it was a stupid move. It's not okay to give someone land for just them that isn't empty.

    (4) Sure, along with hundreds of thousands of non-Jews. It doesn't change the fact that people were already living there.

    And thanks.
    (1) Well, there wasn't a mass expulsion at all. As for mass killing, well, both sides were killing people on the other side so that doesn't fit either.

    (3) It was right because Jews, like every other national body have the right to self determination. Just as the Palestinians want their own state so too the Jews are entitled to theirs. Israel wasn't "just for them". It was supposed to contain plenty of non-Jews and still does. About 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. This is of course besides the point since what is done is done.

    (4) That is true. That is why the UN decided to split the Mandate into two countries one with a Jewish majority and one with an Arab majority. The Arabs all refused this deal and wanted to deny the Jews any country for themselves leaving them stateless (as the Palestinians now are). They invaded the nascent Israel and lost. Hence the situation we are in now.

    It's of course complex and frankly discussing how we got here isn't that helpful.
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    Israeli news channel saying that some 20 palestinians were killed by Hamas for demonstrating against them or heard blaming Hamas or something.

    Still unconfirmed.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    Just as the Palestinians want their own state so too the Jews are entitled to theirs.
    They haven't wanted 'their own state' until relatively recently, i.e. after Israel defeated three arab states. 'Palestinians' that is.
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    Hamas rejects Palestinian Authority call for 1-day truce
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Hamas rejects Palestinian Authority call for 1-day truce
    I'm curious as to which media outlet/s you are using to source your news stories?
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    (1) Well, there wasn't a mass expulsion at all. As for mass killing, well, both sides were killing people on the other side so that doesn't fit either.

    (3) It was right because Jews, like every other national body have the right to self determination. Just as the Palestinians want their own state so too the Jews are entitled to theirs. Israel wasn't "just for them". It was supposed to contain plenty of non-Jews and still does. About 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. This is of course besides the point since what is done is done.

    (4) That is true. That is why the UN decided to split the Mandate into two countries one with a Jewish majority and one with an Arab majority. The Arabs all refused this deal and wanted to deny the Jews any country for themselves leaving them stateless (as the Palestinians now are). They invaded the nascent Israel and lost. Hence the situation we are in now.

    It's of course complex and frankly discussing how we got here isn't that helpful.
    Of course, both sides have the right to their own land but it's not working. Israel keeps the Palestinians under control even though they're barely a threat with the defence system and military power they have. Israel keeps building illegal settlements on Palestinian land, often bulldozing down homes. Some Palestinian groups also cause problems in rejecting peace but if you keep people, mostly young people, contained in unfair conditions then they become uneasy and it's naive to think they won't cause problems.

    It all just needs to stop. Both sides need to back the **** off and let each other live because the people causing the problems are rarely the ones to actually suffer the consequences, it's the innocent civilians. That plus most of the people who actually caused the problems are dead anyway.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I'm curious as to which media outlet/s you are using to source your news stories?
    That was from CNN

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/29/wo...sis/index.html

    Earlier Tuesday, Hamas rejected a call from Palestinian leadership in the West Bank for a 24-hour truce to halt the bloodshed in Gaza

    But most media reporting.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    That was from CNN

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/29/wo...sis/index.html

    Earlier Tuesday, Hamas rejected a call from Palestinian leadership in the West Bank for a 24-hour truce to halt the bloodshed in Gaza

    But most media reporting.
    I meant in general and not specific to the post that I replied to.
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    (Original post by flyyoufools)
    Of course, both sides have the right to their own land but it's not working. Israel keeps the Palestinians under control even though they're barely a threat with the defence system and military power they have. Israel keeps building illegal settlements on Palestinian land, often bulldozing down homes. Some Palestinian groups also cause problems in rejecting peace but if you keep people, mostly young people, contained in unfair conditions then they become uneasy and it's naive to think they won't cause problems.

    It all just needs to stop. Both sides need to back the **** off and let each other live because the people causing the problems are rarely the ones to actually suffer the consequences, it's the innocent civilians. That plus most of the people who actually caused the problems are dead anyway.
    There are again some inaccuracies in your post. Israel doesn't "keep the Palestinians under control". There are no Israelis in Gaza (prior to the latest flare up) and large areas of the West Bank are under complete Palestinian internal control since Oslo. Israel does continue to extend settlements which is very wrong but they do not bulldoze existing homes to do so.

    Israel did back off from Gaza in 2005. They withdrew completely giving the Palestinians there the opportunity to get on with their lives free of Israeli control. There was no blockade when Israel withdrew. Unfortunately the Palestinians voted for Hamas who then killed their Fatah rivals and established a dictatorship over Gaza. Since then they have repeatedly attacked Israel with no reasonable hope of achieving anything except publicity through dead Palestinians.

    If you look objectively at the situation you will see that the West Bank has been very quiet for years and it is Gaza that keeps causing trouble. In the medium term Israel needs to stop settlement expansion and find a way of giving the Palestinians a state of their own. But in the short term Hamas must be stopped because they are causing harm to everyone and benefitting nobody but themselves. Note that the leaders of Hamas live very comfortably in Qatar and Haniyeh (the Hamas leader in Gaza) fled to Qatar as soon as trouble started.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I meant in general and not specific to the post that I replied to.
    A fair few

    Israeli sources:
    ynetnews.com - centrist
    jpost.com - centre right
    Haaretz.com - lefty
    ArutzSheva - Right (used to be good for breaking news, but seems slower these days)
    http://www.i24news.tv/en/ - centrist (you can stream the news from the site)
    MEMRI - Translated Arab media

    BBC *spits*
    Sky News
    Liveleak for vids
    CNN - American liberal perspective
    Middleeastmonitor.com - Arab perspective
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    A fair few

    Israeli sources:
    ynetnews.com - centrist
    jpost.com - centre right
    Haaretz.com - lefty
    ArutzSheva - Right (used to be good for breaking news, but seems slower these days)
    http://www.i24news.tv/en/ - centrist (you can stream the news from the site)
    MEMRI - Translated Arab media

    BBC *spits*
    Sky News
    Liveleak for vids
    CNN - American liberal perspective
    Middleeastmonitor.com - Arab perspective
    Thanks.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    Israel did back off from Gaza in 2005.
    They didn't. There is a 1KM (currently 3KM) buffer zone around Gaza. This is on Gazan land, not Israeli land. Ergo, they "did [not] back off from Gaza"...

    They withdrew completely giving the Palestinians there the opportunity to get on with their lives free of Israeli control. There was no blockade when Israel withdrew. Unfortunately the Palestinians voted for Hamas who then killed their Fatah rivals and established a dictatorship over Gaza.
    Did you forget to mention that HAMAS was elected despite interference from the Israeli government and practises of Fatah?

    Did you also omit to state the fact that the Israeli's, Fatah and the US were in tacit collusion to get rid of HAMAS but they failed?

    Since then they have repeatedly attacked Israel with no reasonable hope of achieving anything except publicity through dead Palestinians.
    But it's Israel who have killed them, not HAMAS...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    They didn't. There is a 1KM (currently 3KM) buffer zone around Gaza. This is on Gazan land, not Israeli land. Ergo, they "did [not] back off from Gaza"...

    Did you forget to mention that HAMAS was elected despite interference from the Israeli government and practises of Fatah?

    Did you also omit to state the fact that the Israeli's, Fatah and the US were in tacit collusion to get rid of HAMAS but they failed?

    But it's Israel who have killed them, not HAMAS...
    So the buffer zone means that Israel did not remove its soldiers and citizens from Gaza? Of course not. Israel withdrew from Gaza and did not want to go back in again. That is an undeniable fact. You don't withdraw all your soldiers from an area of land you want to keep your soldiers in.

    The fact that Israel did not want a terrorist group to win an election is immaterial to the historical fact of their winning that election. The Palestinians voted for Hamas knowing what they stood for.

    And Israel have killed Palestinians precisely as Hamas wanted.

    Tell me, why do you think Hamas fire rockets at Israel?
 
 
 
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