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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    There are again some inaccuracies in your post. Israel doesn't "keep the Palestinians under control". There are no Israelis in Gaza (prior to the latest flare up) and large areas of the West Bank are under complete Palestinian internal control since Oslo. Israel does continue to extend settlements which is very wrong but they do not bulldoze existing homes to do so.

    Israel did back off from Gaza in 2005. They withdrew completely giving the Palestinians there the opportunity to get on with their lives free of Israeli control. There was no blockade when Israel withdrew. Unfortunately the Palestinians voted for Hamas who then killed their Fatah rivals and established a dictatorship over Gaza. Since then they have repeatedly attacked Israel with no reasonable hope of achieving anything except publicity through dead Palestinians.

    If you look objectively at the situation you will see that the West Bank has been very quiet for years and it is Gaza that keeps causing trouble. In the medium term Israel needs to stop settlement expansion and find a way of giving the Palestinians a state of their own. But in the short term Hamas must be stopped because they are causing harm to everyone and benefitting nobody but themselves. Note that the leaders of Hamas live very comfortably in Qatar and Haniyeh (the Hamas leader in Gaza) fled to Qatar as soon as trouble started.
    No, there aren't inside but they've built the wall and unnecessary checkpoints and they have control over their resources (e.g. this recent conflict led to them messing with the sewerage/water filtration meaning the sewerage is now in the sea and they've lost their only recreation). Yes, they do illegally bulldoze existing homes, more for the control aspect of things but also for settlements which not only leaves families out in the cold but also puts the Israelis who move in, in danger (e.g. http://www.icahd.org/).

    Publicity, exactly, they're desperate because Western media is pretty biased in the subject. Cause enough noise and people see through it eventually, this recent conflict being evidence of that. No, it's not okay that any humans are being killed in the process but Israel is fighting back and it's leading to more deaths which is what is keeping this in the news. Sure, a lot of the Palestinian 'leaders' are unreasonable and extreme but can you blame them for fighting back? Thousands if not millions of children are left with Post-Traumatic symptoms, they then grow up with that so it's no surprise they hate and fight against what caused it: Israel.

    Yes, Gaza is where most trouble occurs but probably because of the ridiculous control Israel keeps over them. Tiny stretch of land. Traumatised, fed up young people. Unfair situations. They're bound to cause problems. Yes, Hamas also needs to be stopped but along with Israel's actions, both set off one another so stopping one won't get you anywhere. Leaders are usually out of the actual situation all over the globe, leaving the uninvolved civilians to deal with the consequences; one of the main reasons I'm a pacifist.
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    I have been following the recent Israel - Palestinian conflict on news site gist4me.com, which collects news from different sources around the world so it provides a great view and perspective based on different opinions .

    So after years of Israel - Palestinian conflict and being further away from a solution, with opinions on who is right or wrong more divided than ever, I wonder are we deflecting the real blame which maybe due to a lack of efficient leadership to solve issues ?

    Leadership primarily from both Israel and Hamas but also from the world to effectively tackle a difficult issue, which due to years of complex historical events have made it difficult to arrive at a solution favorable to all.

    If one looks with a narrow focus at the short term history of events, it is easy to draw sides based on ones perspectives, but if you look at the problem from a longer historical perspective, it is complex and that which can only be solved by efficient leadership.

    Your thoughts and opinions ?

    (Recommend such sites as gist4me which allows different perspective on a subject)
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    So the buffer zone means that Israel did not remove its soldiers and citizens from Gaza? Of course not. Israel withdrew from Gaza and did not want to go back in again. That is an undeniable fact. You don't withdraw all your soldiers from an area of land you want to keep your soldiers in.
    So why is there a buffer zone IN Gaza?

    The fact that Israel did not want a terrorist group to win an election is immaterial to the historical fact of their winning that election. The Palestinians voted for Hamas knowing what they stood for.
    And HAMAS only gained full control of the strip after the US, Israel's and Fatah's attempted coup and/or tacit approval...

    And Israel have killed Palestinians precisely as Hamas wanted.
    Which makes them the fools in this scenario. If your enemy wants you to kill it's civilians in order to garner condemnation from the International community and you go and do exactly that, you are pretty stupid.

    It doesn't seem like the Israeli's have two brain cells to rub together at the moment...

    Tell me, why do you think Hamas fire rockets at Israel?
    I believe they only started firing rockets after Israel commenced their operation but no doubt, you shall soon "correct me"....
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    (Original post by flyyoufools)
    No, there aren't inside but they've built the wall and unnecessary checkpoints and they have control over their resources (e.g. this recent conflict led to them messing with the sewerage/water filtration meaning the sewerage is now in the sea and they've lost their only recreation). Yes, they do illegally bulldoze existing homes, more for the control aspect of things but also for settlements which not only leaves families out in the cold but also puts the Israelis who move in, in danger (e.g. http://www.icahd.org/).

    Publicity, exactly, they're desperate because Western media is pretty biased in the subject. Cause enough noise and people see through it eventually, this recent conflict being evidence of that. No, it's not okay that any humans are being killed in the process but Israel is fighting back and it's leading to more deaths which is what is keeping this in the news. Sure, a lot of the Palestinian 'leaders' are unreasonable and extreme but can you blame them for fighting back? Thousands if not millions of children are left with Post-Traumatic symptoms, they then grow up with that so it's no surprise they hate and fight against what caused it: Israel.

    Yes, Gaza is where most trouble occurs but probably because of the ridiculous control Israel keeps over them. Tiny stretch of land. Traumatised, fed up young people. Unfair situations. They're bound to cause problems. Yes, Hamas also needs to be stopped but along with Israel's actions, both set off one another so stopping one won't get you anywhere. Leaders are usually out of the actual situation all over the globe, leaving the uninvolved civilians to deal with the consequences; one of the main reasons I'm a pacifist.
    I don't think we're going to get anywhere in this discussion. Both sides have done wrong things but I do not believe there is moral equivalence.

    Just to pick on one point - the idea that this is about publicity, which it almost certainly is. The media in the West never report on Hamas rockets unless Israel respond to them. Hamas must know this. The media in the West report on Israel's response when Palestinians die and Hamas know this too. Therefore, Hamas' plan is to gain publicity by making Israel kill Palestinians. They are giving Israel only this choice: "give us carte blanche to fire rockets and terrorise your civilians or else come and kill ours". Israel is hung either way by Hamas and the primary responsibility of Israel must be to protects its own citizens first.

    Hamas is the worst thing to happen to the Palestinians. Like all Islamist terrorist groups their main victim are innocent Muslims.
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    It's boring now. Palestine should accept Israel.

    /Thread.
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    ahhh, if only.... 'Palestine Peace - Muslim,Jews and Christians Living in Peace'


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    I say screw the Jews and the Muslims, lets give Israel to the Buddhists.

    #findingsolutions
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Hamas were running low on funds...

    If it's one thing they hate, it's being ...broke.
    Couldn't they ask for some of the hundreds of millions of dollars that Arafat siphoned out of Palestine?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Couldn't they ask for some of the hundreds of millions of dollars that Arafat siphoned out of Palestine?
    Sufa spent it all staying at the Ritz

    There are around 600 Hamas millionaires in Gaza.
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    Transcript of Netanyahu and Obama's phone call (27th July 2014):

    Barack Obama: I demand that Israel agrees to an immediate, unilateral ceasefire and halt all offensive activities, in particular airstrikes.

    Benjamin Netanyahu: And what will Israel receive in exchange for a ceasefire?

    BO: I believe that Hamas will cease its rocket fire — silence will be met with silence.

    BN: Hamas broke all five previous ceasefires. It’s a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

    BO: I repeat and expect Israel to stop all its military activities unilaterally. The pictures of destruction in Gaza distance the world from Israel’s position.

    BN: Kerry’s proposal was completely unrealistic and gives Hamas military and diplomatic advantages.

    BO: Within a week of the end of Israel’s military activities, Qatar and Turkey will begin negotiations with Hamas based on the 2012 understandings, including Israel’s commitment to removing the siege restrictions on Gaza.

    BN: Qatar and Turkey are the biggest supporters of Hamas. It’s impossible to rely on them to be fair mediators.

    BO: I trust Qatar and Turkey. Israel is not in the position that it can choose its mediators.

    BN: I protest because Hamas can continue to launch rockets and use tunnels for terror attacks –

    BO: (interrupting Netanyahu) The ball’s in Israel’s court, and it must end all its military activities.


    Are the Americans getting pissed off with the Israeli's or is this to put pressure on Kerry to be more favourable to Israel in the Egyptian brokered ceasefire proposal?
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    Qassam will be making a statement/speech at 10:00 pm (20:00 GMT).

    Rumours circulating that there will be a "Christmas bonus"...

    Apparently, the speech will be made by Chief Commander Muhammad Deif, the leader of the Izzadin Al Qassam Brigades...



    Just broadcasted on Al Aqsa TV after the speech above:

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    Peru, Chile, Brazil and Ecuador recall their ambassadors over the "atrocious" actions of the Israeli government. More expected to follow suit...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    How did HAMAS "start a war with one of the most powerful military in the world"?

    By firing their ****ty rockets into Israel or allowing their brainwashed Islamist jihadists to do so, for instance.

    The below sources are from 2013, since you keep insisting that Israel initiated this conflict for no good reason.All of the sources are from Reuters or the New York Times, before you accuse me of bias.

    1. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/25/wo...rael.html?_r=0

    Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, a spokesman for the military, said in a statement that the rocket attacks were “an intolerable act of aggression against Israel and its civilians,” and that “Hamas is held accountable for all acts of terrorism deriving from the Gaza Strip.”

    I know that you struggle with understanding implications in written text, and rather just see the obvious meaning without really thinking about the implicit meaning of a statement. For this reason, I'd like to explain that this person is not blaming Hamas for carrying out the attacks but rather for the fact that the attacks were carried out while it was in power and not enough was done to stop it. You're welcome.


    2. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...92K05A20130321

    The president was in Jerusalem, some 80 km (50 miles) from Sderot, when the rockets struck several hours before his visit to the West Bank city of Ramallah for talks with Hamas's rival, Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.
    "We condemn violence against civilians regardless of its source, including rocket firing," Abbas was quoted as saying by the official Palestinian Wafa news agency.
    There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the strike, the second time rockets launched from Gaza have hit Israel since a truce ended an eight-day cross-border war in November.

    3.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...95N06G20130624


    Six rockets were fired into Israel overnight, causing no damage, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said. Two of them were shot down by Israel's Iron Dome missile defense system, the military said.
    Israeli aircraft later struck targets in the Gaza Strip, including two weapons storage facilities, the military said, and Israel closed one of its the crossings with the coastal territory, which is controlled by the Islamist movement Hamas.
    No group claimed responsibility for the Palestinian rocket fire. Officials in Gaza said two of six Israeli air strikes struck training camps for the militant group Islamic Jihad.

    4.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/12/us-palestinians-islamicjihad-idUSBRE9AB08720131112



    Hours after Israeli special forces killed Mohammed Assi in a shootout last month in the occupied West Bank, the Palestinian militant groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad both tried to cloak themselves in his legacy.
    Underscoring their shared Islamist credentials, the two groups quickly claimed the dead man as one of their own, proud to take responsibility for a Tel Aviv bus bombing in 2012 that he helped carry out and that wounded several Israelis.
    The rivalry to monopolize Assi's memory mirrors a much broader competition between the two groups, both of which are deemed terrorist organizations in the West, to attract supporters and kudos in the Palestinian territories.

    END OF SOURCES

    Rockets and other acts of terrorism have originated from Gaza since after the ceasefire. Israel has patiently put up with these, expecting Hamas to crack down on them. Not only has Hamas not done so, but as article number 4 shows, they have actually supported terrorists.

    Israel was much too patient with Hamas, in my opinion. They gave them many chances to get their act together, to stop terrorizing a legitimate state since they withdrew in 2007. Hamas failed to do so, and since 2007, 11,000 rockets have been fired into Israel from Gaza.

    Below is a source from the IDF blog, which, obviously being from the IDF is one sided. You may read it and decide for yourself how reliable it is, however it does outline the terror that Israel has experienced from the side of Gaza since 2007 before Operation Protective Edge. The number of rockets fired into Israel from Gaza before Operation Protective Edge in 2014 alone are numbered at 450.

    http://www.idfblog.com/facts-figures...toward-israel/




    So that's a no on the propaganda front? Can't say I'm surprised...





    Why do you make foolish statements which you know you cannot support?

    :rolleyes:

    I did.


    I have a "trademark"? That's a new one so full credit on you using your brain for once...
    Yep, your ability to twist people's words and even go as far as claiming they did something they actually did not. For evidence, see the relevant section at which this 'trademark' comment was directed.
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    Looks like it was true

    Palestinian media reports Hamas has executed more than 30 civilians accused of collaborating with Israel.

    Hamas shot some 20 Palestinians on Monday night for protesting against Hamas for the massive destruction inflicted on their neighborhood in Shejaia by the IDF in the past weeks, Channel 10 reported on Tuesday.


    Over the past few days, Hamas has executed more than 30 civilians from various parts of the Gaza Strip which it suspected of collaborating with Israel, unidentified Palestinian security sources told the Palestine Press News
    No doubt the BBC will just add this batch of dead as being Israel's doing.
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    This is a very interesting article that both sides would benefit from reading. It starts off sounding Pro-Israeli, but soon we see that both sides are criticized for their actions. It's food for thought for those who choose their side based on their religion rather than opinion.

    I especially like this quote, as I'd been thinking about the bolded part recently but just saw it voiced in an article. :

    To be fair, these kinds of things
    [certain atrocities mentioned in the article] do happen on both sides. They are an inevitable consequence of multiple generations raised to hate the other over the course of 65 plus years. To hold Israel up to a higher standard would mean approaching the Palestinians with the racism of lowered expectations.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-...b_5602701.html

    It's called 7 things to consider before choosing sides in the middle east conflict

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    Yes, the soft bigotry of lower expectations and higher expectations of Israel.

    It's been said many times.

    I believe the left wing are most responsible for this.
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    Italian journalist backs IDF story on the park strike yesterday

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    I don't support either.

    But I do think that Gaza would still be lost cause demographically, geographically, and economically, even if they never battled with Israel, due to its overpopulation problems.
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    So, do you agree with him?

    Also, you people who support Israel. I have a question for you. I may sound naive and ignorant. I have spent quite a lot of time, analysing your opinions on why you choose to support Israel. And my analyses resulted in a conclusion. You people "hate Islam and muslims" because of all the chaos that they've created all over the world. Which is understandable.

    But are you really looking for a peaceful solution? Your views which are fuelled by hatred and anger towards a religion and a community as a whole is in itself opposing your peaceful ideas of living in this society as humans? Aren't you supposed to help and support the victim regardless of the religion he's following? What did the children of Gaza do to suffer and go through such a painful experience?
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    Everyone's expected to rigorously back and support one side of this and completely ignore or disregard the issues raised by the other, but people still wonder why there's been no progress towards a solution. Such a shame.
 
 
 
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