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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    If Israel wanted to, they would have already wiped Palestine off the map.
    I think you're confused. It's exactly what they're doing. What percentage of Palestine has been wiped off the map already? Building settlements, expanding their control, building walls, suffocating Palestinians so they have no water, food or shelter, let alone an economy, is how you wipe a country off the map. It's been happening since 1948. They haven't stopped building settlements - illegal land grabbing. Meanwhile if Palestinians dare fight back their women and children get carpet bombed and phosphorus thrown at them. I'm not even exaggerating, it's that tragic. Genocide whilst the world watches and America backs them unconditionally.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    What, like when palestinians killed over 1,000 Israelis in the second intifada?
    You mean the Palestinians had an uprising after the Israelis occupied their land? Well, how dare they.. 2/3 times that amount was killed by the Israelis in that same period
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    Israel has the right to exist.
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    Just for the record, Israel started the aggression on Gaza in military operation Brother's Keeper when they rearrested some 300+ Palestinians without any justification and killed 5 in the process. Hamas simply retaliated with home-made rockets that hardly do any damage. Somehow, the majority of Pro-Israeli news-stations have managed to purport this FALSE narrative that Hamas started it. In fact, have Hamas ever even broke a ceasefire?

    Anyway, I agree with Russell Brand's position. That interviewer is retarded.

    Funnily enough, Obama has just sanctioned Russia for shooting down the Malaysian airline killing 200+ innocents but when it comes to the 1,137 Palestinians killed (the majority of which are innocent civilians) Obama has nothing to say, in fact he supports this ethnic cleansing.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Typical left wing, know-nothing.

    Absolute dreadful stuff there. So naive, so misinformed.
    If caring for innocent children and seeking for a solution instead of blaming both sides is considered naive, misinformed and know-nothing. Then, I don't mind being naive and know-nothing at all
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    (Original post by Mystery Me)


    So, do you agree with him?

    Also, you people who support Israel. I have a question for you. I may sound naive and ignorant. I have spent quite a lot of time, analysing your opinions on why you choose to support Israel. And my analyses resulted in a conclusion. You people "hate Islam and muslims" because of all the chaos that they've created all over the world. Which is understandable.

    But are you really looking for a peaceful solution? Your views which are fuelled by hatred and anger towards a religion and a community as a whole is in itself opposing your peaceful ideas of living in this society as humans? Aren't you supposed to help and support the victim regardless of the religion he's following? What did the children of Gaza do to suffer and go through such a painful experience?
    I personally agree with almost everything Russel says. Despite being a comedian and an ex drug addict... he's very intelligent and knowledgeable. He's often pointed things out that I otherwise wouldn't have noticed or acknowledged.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    LOL.

    The hyperbole is strong with this one.

    Sorry, you don't have a clue.
    So they're haven't been illegally land grabbing then? It's been happening constantly.

    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.as...2#.U9gaE81ycuo
    As the United Nations has reiterated on many occasions, the building of settlements on occupied territory is illegal under international law,” said a statement issued by Mr. Ban’s spokesperson.

    How do you think they land grab? Offer them sweets? Houses are bulldozed. Farm land stolen. People killed. This is wiping the country off a map - Israel are actually doing it. Forget the Iranians.

    How can genocide happen so openly for all to see yet denied? It's astonishing
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    On the contrary. Speaking from a purely military perspective - if you look at the environment Israel is operating in which is densely populated, narrow streets and alleyways, homes on top of homes - coupled with the fact that the civilian infrastructure has been completely hijacked and integrated into the terrorist infrastructure, then the casualties are fairly low considering the amount of airstrikes.

    Don't forget that although the European media doesn't seem to want to differentiate between terrorist and civilian, hundreds of terrorists have been killed with the army saying around 400 in the ground operation alone.

    As it stands, it's somewhere in the region of 0.2 civilian deaths per strike. In such an environment, that's phenomenal.

    Israel also goes above and beyond their responsibilities vis-a-vis civilians. Phone call, texts, leaflet drops and roof-knocks are all utilised.

    There really is nothing else they can do.

    Land for peace does not work. They gave Gaza over and got more terrorism than ever.

    The amount of money and effort spent on terrorism by palestinians in Gaza is astounding. If they put a fraction of that towards building Gaza, they would have had a much improved life and territory.
    How are phone calls and texts that you are about to hit a civilian area any better than ETA or the IRA ringing the newspaper to say they've put a bomb in a shopping in centre? The knock-on-the-roof missiles have actually killed civilians and they hit one target 58 seconds after a warning. Not much time to evacuate a family of terrified children is it?

    How is the strike rate significant? If you fire enough missiles you'll kill enough civilians. The strike rate does not change the morality, or lack thereof, of this operation.

    As for Land for Peace and what else the Israelis can do...

    It seems pretty clear that they have contributed themselves to a pretty toxic atmosphere. Illegal settlements in the West Bank, restricting the movements of Palestinians, killing Palestinians like the 16 year old that was murdered in the revenge attack that sparked this.

    Israel, Hamas and Fatah need to get around the table and start talking. I'd like to hope, though I don't know how likely it is, that the terms of this could include the Gaza blockade eased and Hamas removing the goal of Israel's destruction from it's charter (similar to the Irish people removing their claim to Northern Ireland from it's constitution following the Belfast Agreement). As I said before I'm no fan of Hamas and it's destructive ways.

    I know you have argued in a recent post that European expectations that Israel take the higher moral ground is soft bigotry. However that will have to happen because Israel are in the position of strength. The Palestinians have no bargaining chips, no land, no state, no economy, militarily they are the stone ages compared to Israel. If there is to be peace the Israelis will have to give something up, be it the settlements in the West Bank or whatever.
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    (Original post by P357)
    Israel has the right to exist.
    ...and Palestine doesn't have the right to exist?

    Lines like this are propaganda slogans. Please stop
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    (Original post by silent ninja)
    ...and Palestine doesn't have the right to exist?

    Lines like this are propaganda slogans. Please stop
    so is "you don't have to be muslim to support Palestine,just human"...yet I don't see all that much outrage directed towards that.
    Palestine has itself to blame for electing Hamas really.The way I see it,if you bomb Israel,they're perfectly entitled to retaliate.
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    (Original post by ct2k7)
    Looks like Gaza's only power station has now been destroyed.
    Good. Hamas will surely have to submit to peace now.

    Israel won't give captured territory back though.
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    Posted from TSR Mobile

    And if bomb, blockade, commit war crimes and take land from palestinians they have aright to bomb israel.
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    (Original post by P357)
    so is "you don't have to be muslim to support Palestine,just human"...yet I don't see all that much outrage directed towards that.
    Palestine has itself to blame for electing Hamas really.The way I see it,if you bomb Israel,they're perfectly entitled to retaliate.
    You seem to be under the illusion that Palestinians can actually live peacefully? Do you only watch the news when they're being massacred in the streets?

    Look how they live on a daily basis. They can't go to schools, hospitals, work without being subjugated to military oppression. Searched, beaten, stripped, humiliated just to move from A to B. They have nowhere to live and are very densely populated. A huge water and food shortage because Israel controls everything that comes in - can't rebuild homes because no material is allowed in.
    In the meantime Israel bulldozes homes and steals more land which the UN say is illegal but they ignore. Where are the Palestinians supposed to go, what are they supposed to do. They have been suffocated to death, whilst people like you suggest they should sit there and take it? You seem to think they have equal rights. Arabs have no rights, only Israeli Jews-- there is no law or justice for Arabs.

    In the meantime Israeli Jews enjoy modern luxuries, the latest cars and higher education and one of the most advanced, trigger happy killing machines in the Israeli army. The disparity is unbelievable
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    Let's be rational about this: both sides are pretty bad. Both sides have committed war crimes. Reality rarely conforms to the black and white 'good vs evil' portrayed in Hollywood. And, inevitably, civilians get caught in the crossfire.

    My heart goes out to them both. The Gazans have had to live in a virtual prison with little supplies, extremely poor governance by Hamas, incredible poverty and a world that has seemed to have forgotten them.

    The Israelis also have it tough. Despite having one of the most workable democracies and one of the best human rights records in the entire Middle East region, they are faced by enemies on all sides who want them destroyed and even deny their very right to exist, as well as having to put up with frequent rocket fire.

    Ultimately, this latest war will end as predictably as when it started: an even weaker Hamas, fewer friends in the West for Israel and many dead civilians, mainly Palestinians. The frustrating thing is that a two state solution may just be workable, but with every passing year and every war that goes by, it becomes less likely.
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    Posted from TSR Mobile

    You can be pro-palestine and against hamas.

    Israel has basically enforced Hamas on the palestinians as they are the only group defending them.

    What worse is that it has distracted us from the real issues such as:
    - illegal settlements
    - Blockade on gaza
    - two state solution
    - Water stress due to israel
    - Palestinian rights to return to their lands which Israel is stopping them from.
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    Posted from TSR Mobile

    It's due to the USA being a biased mediator. Which in turns alliws things like unfair blockades and illegal settlements. These occur even in times of peace.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    @OP, I think Brand's views are irrelevant and that celebrities should not voice their opinions on the issue. Their views are no more valid and carry no more weight than those of the man on the street, and yet they use the platform they've been given to ensure many more people listen to their message. That to me is wrong.
    I discovered Russell on youtube. To me, his celebrity status is what that's irrelevant. After watching most of his videos, I can say that this man is intelligent and he is a good debater. At least he's not blaming anyone. And he seems to focus more on the solution to a certain issue rather than forcing his opinion and creating silly childish one sided arguments like most reporters.

    And yes. His views carry no more weight than the man on the street. So, if I met you an him on the street, I'd listen to both of you, equally. And if his views did not seem to influence me or opens my eyes. I would automatically disregard his opinion. But this isn't the case.
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    Russell Brand is a moron and there's no way I'm watching a 12 minute video of him talking. Anyone care to summarise it for me?
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    Fox news is strawman after strawman.


    Also go Russel Brand! :rave:

    Sexy nip slip :sexface:
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Typical left wing, know-nothing.

    Absolute dreadful stuff there. So naive, so misinformed.
    Here's a right winger criticizing Israel's actions for balance.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...rue-Hamas.html
 
 
 
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