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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    How are phone calls and texts that you are about to hit a civilian area any better than ETA or the IRA ringing the newspaper to say they've put a bomb in a shopping in centre? The knock-on-the-roof missiles have actually killed civilians and they hit one target 58 seconds after a warning. Not much time to evacuate a family of terrified children is it?
    So what are you arguing here? that Israel shouldn't warn civilians?

    I'm at a loss as to your point with this.

    As for the 58 second thing - you've watched that video. Unfortunately, you didn't ask yourself why a camera was sitting trained on the building ready to take the footage? because they had a phone warning first.

    How is the strike rate significant? If you fire enough missiles you'll kill enough civilians. The strike rate does not change the morality, or lack thereof, of this operation.
    Of course it matters. It shows that targets are being picked out carefully.

    We know what happens to a city when you don't pick out targets. Homs happens, Hama happens, Idlib happens.


    As for Land for Peace and what else the Israelis can do...
    Indeed. So perhaps the onus is now on palestinians. Perhaps it's time the international community stopped treating them like children. Just throwing money at them.


    Israel, Hamas and Fatah need to get around the table and start talking. I'd like to hope, though I don't know how likely it is, that the terms of this could include the Gaza blockade eased and Hamas removing the goal of Israel's destruction from it's charter (similar to the Irish people removing their claim to Northern Ireland from it's constitution following the Belfast Agreement). As I said before I'm no fan of Hamas and it's destructive ways.

    You'll be hard pushed to get Hamas and Fatah to agree, let alone Israel.

    I'm afraid that Hamas is a nihilistic groups that seeks perpetual conflict. Unless there is a massive shift in their stance or Israel deals them a mortal blow, I don't see anything changing.

    The international community has perpetuated this conflict because it has never allowed victories to be achieved.



    I know you have argued in a recent post that European expectations that Israel take the higher moral ground is soft bigotry. However that will have to happen because Israel are in the position of strength. The Palestinians have no bargaining chips, no land, no state, no economy, militarily they are the stone ages compared to Israel. If there is to be peace the Israelis will have to give something up, be it the settlements in the West Bank or whatever.

    Maybe in the context of Israel V's Pals they are in the position of strength - but remember that this involves all states in the region and Israel has hundreds of thousands of rockets aimed at them from all fronts bar the sea.

    It's a tiny strip of land. Muslims have 99.4% of the middle east, Israel has 0.6%. It's vulnerable and cannot afford to lose a single war.

    The Arab states also have massive clout with their resources, Israel has little clout.

    So in that regard, Israel is certainly not in the position of strength you believe it to be.


    If peace was that easy with the Arabs Israel would have had it by now.

    Remember Israel pulled out of Gaza, pulled out of Southern Lebanon, pulled out of parts of the West Bank, pulled out of Sinai, signed a peace treaty with Jordan, signed a peace treaty with Egypt.

    Israel has made a lot of concessions and got very little in return. In fact the terrorism has increased.
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    (Original post by OMG TOOTHBRUSH)
    Russell Brand is a moron and there's no way I'm watching a 12 minute video of him talking. Anyone care to summarise it for me?
    He was commenting on.the typical Fox news bullying tactics. The extreme bias and hyperbole.

    I don't understand how such a 'news' outlet is allowed to stay open. The misinformation alone over the years is enough to shut it down. Murdoch has power. If this was an independent channel they would've been shut long ago
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    (Original post by silent ninja)
    You seem to be under the illusion that Palestinians can actually live peacefully? Do you only watch the news when they're being massacred in the streets?

    Look how they live on a daily basis. They can't go to schools, hospitals, work without being subjugated to military oppression. Searched, beaten, stripped, humiliated just to move from A to B. They have nowhere to live and are very densely populated. A huge water and food shortage because Israel controls everything that comes in - can't rebuild homes because no material is allowed in.
    In the meantime Israel bulldozes homes and steals more land which the UN say is illegal but they ignore. Where are the Palestinians supposed to go, what are they supposed to do. They have been suffocated to death, whilst people like you suggest they should sit there and take it? You seem to think they have equal rights. Arabs have no rights, only Israeli Jews-- there is no law or justice for Arabs.

    In the meantime Israeli Jews enjoy modern luxuries, the latest cars and higher education and one of the most advanced, trigger happy killing machines in the Israeli army. The disparity is unbelievable
    I stand by what I said. Israel has every single right to exist. Hamas doesn't see it that way as they have themselves declared. Do you expect their constant bombing of Israel to go unobserved?yeah not really going to happen.When the Palestinians quit voting in a regime that uses its own people as human shields ,then maybe i'll sympathize with them a lot more. Your concern seems to do more with the fact that Palestinians are poorer than Israelis rather than anything else-not really a good enough reason for Israel to just happily welcome aggression directed towards them.
    Do you really want to bring the UN into this?The organization that declared "Hamas" a terrorist group?
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    [Bx[/B]
    I'm saying Israel shouldn't bomb civilians, full stop. It's pretty obvious what I believe, we're not going to agree on that.

    Israel signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan and eventually left Lebanon where they should never have been in the first place but they are still engaged in a vicious cycle of toxic sectarianism with the Arabs. They need to address that. And I know that Hamas contributes massively to that but they've driven the Palestinian people in to the hands of the Islamists by not playing ball with the PLO.

    I'm being reasonable here. I'm not someone who believes that Israel should be obliterated and the land handed back to the Arabs but it's apparent that Palestinians are treated like second class citizens and the Israelis are hoping they'll all just f*** off to some other part of the Arab world.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I'm trying not to, thus my first sentence.
    Yea, mate. I agree with you. Of coarse both sides are wrong. But after looking at the amount of innocent people suffer. And after reading articles where people in the comments section mostly say "This is never going to end". This has become an alarming issue and we can no longer say who's right or who's wrong. It's time to find a solution and save people. :/
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    I'm saying Israel shouldn't bomb civilians, full stop. It's pretty obvious what I believe, we're not going to agree on that.
    Part of war I'm afraid. Civilians die.

    You want a zero-civilian casualty war, you'll only get that in ye olden days when armies would meet in a field somewhere and duke it out.

    Israel signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan and eventually left Lebanon where they should never have been in the first place
    Umm, they were in Lebanon because of palestinian rocket fire. Sound familiar?


    I'm being reasonable here. I'm not someone who believes that Israel should be obliterated and the land handed back to the Arabs but it's apparent that Palestinians are treated like second class citizens and the Israelis are hoping they'll all just f*** off to some other part of the Arab world.
    If Israel was to hand "back" the land, it would not go to the 'palestinains' - it would go to Egypt and Jordan.

    You're not being unreasonable, you're being slightly naive if you don't mind me saying.

    You're projecting 'western' values on a region that does not adhere to them.

    Place yourself smack bang in the middle of the regionwith head-choppers on your border - then tell me how diplomatic you'll be.

    Best place to start here, is for the Arab world including Hamas, Hezbollah etc to remove their call of destroying Israel.

    Then Israel might feel slightly safer making yet more concessions.
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    (Original post by P357)
    I stand by what I said. Israel has every single right to exist. Hamas doesn't see it that way as they have themselves declared. Do you expect their constant bombing of Israel to go unobserved?yeah not really going to happen.When the Palestinians quit voting in a regime that uses its own people as human shields ,then maybe i'll sympathize with them a lot more. Your concern seems to do more with the fact that Palestinians are poorer than Israelis rather than anything else-not really a good enough reason for Israel to just happily welcome aggression directed towards them.
    Do you really want to bring the UN into this?The organization that declared "Hamas" a terrorist group?
    Palestinians are poorer? They're living under siege. It's got nothing to do with wealth. Israel is the invading force, the aggressor. You can't deny this. Living under siege like animals at the mercy of Israeli is unacceptable. They have no rights, no freedoms

    Israel has broken more UN resolutions than any country in history. We'll invade Iran for breaking one, but Israel continues with impunity

    The huge disparity in the civilian death toll tells you all you need to know. Take your blinkers off. You can't defend the indefensible
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Part of war I'm afraid. Civilians die.
    How many Gazan deaths would it take for you to say "you know what guys, that's probably enough"?
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Part of war I'm afraid. Civilians die.

    You want a zero-civilian casualty war, you'll only get that in ye olden days when armies would meet in a field somewhere and duke it out.
    You believe civilian casualties are a necessity in war and in the days of old there were no civilian casualties, and you're calling us naive?

    Umm, they were in Lebanon because of palestinian rocket fire. Sound familiar?

    If Israel was to hand "back" the land, it would not go to the 'palestinains' - it would go to Egypt and Jordan.
    Except they would be expected to give back the land according to the proposed 1947 UN boarders. If you're going to reject that the land should be given back the British mostly (if not totally).

    You're not being unreasonable, you're being slightly naive if you don't mind me saying.

    You're projecting 'western' values on a region that does not adhere to them.
    The concepts of decency and having at least some honour aren't western values, they're values maintained by at least mankind as a species, and one could extend it to parts of the rest of the animal kingdom too.

    Place yourself smack bang in the middle of the regionwith head-choppers on your border - then tell me how diplomatic you'll be.

    Best place to start here, is for the Arab world including Hamas, Hezbollah etc to remove their call of destroying Israel.

    Then Israel might feel slightly safer making yet more concessions.
    So, you're saying that you don't support Israel treating Palestinians as human beings until Hamas stop being aggressive towards Israel, which came as a consequence of being ignored and treated like animals?
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    (Original post by n00)
    How many Gazan deaths would it take for you to say "you know what guys, that's probably enough"?
    How long did it take the British with regards to German civilians?


    Until surrender, wasn't it?
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Until surrender
    So you'd happily cheer on the deaths of the entire population if no surrender was forthcomming?
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    More weapons found in another UN school

    Weapons were found in an UNRWA school in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, Israel Radio reported early Wednesday morning.

    This is the third incident of its type to occur in the span of a single week.

    UNRWA condemned the incident.
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    (Original post by n00)
    So you'd happily cheer on the deaths of the entire population if no surrender was forthcomming?
    I think there's a difference between "cheering" and understanding conflict and all it entails.

    I don't want Israel to go through this every 12 months and I'm sure most of the palestinians don't.

    Israel made a massive gesture in leaving Gaza. Now you'll no doubt jump in and say it wasn't 100% and that a row of bushes wasn't returned or something - but the fact is that Israel made a massive move and massive gesture by leaving Gaza.

    They got more terrorism than ever.

    So the onus is not on Israel, it's on palestinians.

    When they've had enough of destruction and death, give Israel a call and let them know.
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    I think there's a difference between "cheering" and understanding conflict and all it entails.
    Maybe, but then you're still cheering them on.


    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Now you'll no doubt jump in and say it wasn't 100% and that a row of bushes wasn't returned or something
    Nar, I couldn't give a ****.


    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    When they've had enough of destruction and death, give Israel a call and let them know.
    Because Israel will never have enough?
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    If you're on Israel's side, please re-evaluate your life.
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    The real Jews don't live in Israel but actually outside Israel, they also condemn Israels behavior.
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    Just get rid of gaza all together.... make it a no go zone - fill it with sea water, because there is always going to be fighting there no matter what...

    Oh it was my land... no wait it's mine.... it's such a pathetic reason to kill so many people who don't give a crap and just want to live without all of that BS. It's become excuse after excuse to breed hatred in the region built on religious differences that aren't a whole lot different, and to breed the fear that extremists love to take advantage of...

    If people don't like it as it is now, they should move. If you're Jewish, go to Northern Israel, if you're Muslim, there's a hecka lot of muslim countries that would welcome you with open arms.

    Same with other areas of conflict at the moment - if you want to be Russian, go to Russia, if you want to be British come on over to Britain .... if you feel THAT strongly you're willing to kill, it would be way more logical to just move and retain peace....

    I mean, you don't see me rocking up in Birmingham, demanding "The Land of my Fathers" back, as it used to belong to the Celts do you? .... hold up.... why haven't I done this!!!! Come forth fellow Welshies! we must reclaim Birmingham!!!!!!

    I don't believe bombing is ever the answer.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You believe civilian casualties are a necessity in war and in the days of old there were no civilian casualties, and you're calling us naive?
    civilian casualties are a inevitable part of war - they weren't a few centuries ago where two armies picked a field and clashed swords, but warfare has moved on and that won't happen these days - what they're saying isn't naive, it's a basic part of war
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    civilian casualties are a inevitable part of war - they weren't a few centuries ago where two armies picked a field and clashed swords, but warfare has moved on and that won't happen these days - what they're saying isn't naive, it's a basic part of war
    While you may have had few or no civilian casualties during the battle doesn't mean that there weren't any at all in the war. As for war today, it's inevitable but possibly avoidable, and the fact that they regularly ignore is that the methods used by Israel lead to unnecessary civilian casualties, using a shell where a bullet would have done the job, for example.Although, more broadly what they say and, assuming it's the person who I think it is but on a different account, their recurrent use of "facts" that have already been irrefutably shown wrong (such as their belief that the widespread bombing of German cities in WWII was as a consequence of V2) is undoubtedly naivety.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    If Israel wanted to, they would have already wiped Palestine off the map.

    @OP, I think Brand's views are irrelevant and that celebrities should not voice their opinions on the issue. Their views are no more valid and carry no more weight than those of the man on the street, and yet they use the platform they've been given to ensure many more people listen to their message. That to me is wrong.
    I don't think Russell Brand is going to be confused with a respected political correspondent any time soon. Just as well to listen critically to his views as uncritically to Andrew Marr's, I think.
 
 
 
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