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    (Original post by n00)
    But it's Israel that are doing the actual murdering and fortunately it seems the rest of the world won't be buying that bull**** for much longer.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...philip-hammond
    If you drag a civilian into a combat zone, and the enemy kill them while trying to kill you - whose fault is it? The enemies for pulling the trigger, or you for unnecessarily endangering them?

    I'd hope anyone would say you were at fault in that case: the shot that killed may come from Israeli hands, but it wouldn't have killed if Hamas hadn't put those civilians in deliberate danger.
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    Cameron announces an additional £3m in aid for Gaza as Philip Hammond lambastes Israel for it's "rapidly losing support".

    There are increasing reports of anti-Semitism across Europe.
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    If you drag a civilian into a combat zone, and the enemy kill them while trying to kill you - whose fault is it? The enemies for pulling the trigger, or you for unnecessarily endangering them?

    I'd hope anyone would say you were at fault in that case: the shot that killed may come from Israeli hands, but it wouldn't have killed if Hamas hadn't put those civilians in deliberate danger.
    :yawn: arn't you buddies with that neo-nazi?

    Turn up the white noise!

    If a criminal runs into a crowd are the police justified in killing everyone in the crowd?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Israeli Intelligence Officers Doubt Hamas Involvement In Incident That Sparked Gaza War


    Does Pinzer or Miavdbt or any resident Zionist or IDF propagandist want to comment?
    I don't believe the kidnapping was the main reason for the conflict. I think it was the tipping point, but any similar event could have sparked off the conflict.

    Also, Hamas actively brainwashes its population from the cradle to hate jews and Israel. So, indirectly, we could pin the kidnapping and murder on Hamas anyway. Why did Palestinians rejoice at the murder of the teens while later, Israelis condemned the murder of the Arab teen in the worst possible terms?

    Netanyahu condemns murder of Arab teens, Abbas never condemned the murder of the three Israeli teens.

    In fact, they had the Three Shalit Campaign to celebrate it.


    Also, from your article:

    Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld
    told the BBC last week that police believed the killers did not have ties to Hamas in Gaza — but did to Hamas in the West Bank.

    So, the same terrorist organization with the same charter could be responsible. Heck, Hamas in Gaza could be responsible. We don't know.

    Now, onto you TSR, for the Hamas propaganda side.


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    (Original post by tsr1269)

    If I had illegally immigrated and brought over my whole extended family and in the process, marginalised, displaced and committed atrocities against the indigenous people and demanded my own state, thus abusing their hospitality, I wouldn't just think that the rockets are justified, I would actually expect them to retaliate in some way, manner or form.
    LOL.

    Israel is a sovereign state created by the UN. Nobody immigrated illegally anyway. The indigenous people have included both Arabs and Jews. The Arabs and Jews were both given the right to their own state under the UN partition plan.

    Tell me again, why the Arabs never got their state.

    Also, answer my question.

    Do you SUPPORT Hamas's actions and believe that this government is a good option for the people of Gaza?


    I've asked you this many times and you've ignored it. I wonder why.
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    I don't believe the kidnapping was the main reason for the conflict.

    Correct.

    The Hamas cheer leaders on here who love a bit of terrorism and no doubt didn't condemn the killing of the three boys - seem to forget that it was the increase in rocket fire that precipitated this conflict and Israel gave several public warnings over a period of roughly two weeks that if the rocket fire did not stop, they would retaliate.
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    If you drag a civilian into a combat zone, and the enemy kill them while trying to kill you - whose fault is it? The enemies for pulling the trigger, or you for unnecessarily endangering them?

    I'd hope anyone would say you were at fault in that case: the shot that killed may come from Israeli hands, but it wouldn't have killed if Hamas hadn't put those civilians in deliberate danger.
    How did they "put those civilians in deliberate danger"?
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    I don't believe the kidnapping was the main reason for the conflict. I think it was the tipping point, but any similar event could have sparked off the conflict.

    Also, Hamas actively brainwashes its population from the cradle to hate jews and Israel. So, indirectly, we could pin the kidnapping and murder on Hamas anyway. Why did Palestinians rejoice at the murder of the teens while later, Israelis condemned the murder of the Arab teen in the worst possible terms?

    Netanyahu condemns murder of Arab teens, Abbas never condemned the murder of the three Israeli teens.

    In fact, they had the Three Shalit Campaign to celebrate it.


    Also, from your article:

    Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld
    told the BBC last week that police believed the killers did not have ties to Hamas in Gaza — but did to Hamas in the West Bank.

    So, the same terrorist organization with the same charter could be responsible. Heck, Hamas in Gaza could be responsible. We don't know.

    Now, onto you TSR, for the Hamas propaganda side.


    After a time, the whataboutery really starts to grate me but IDF propagandists are oblivious to it.

    Netanyahu, Chindits, you, Pinzer all engage in it.

    Simple question: WHY?
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    LOL.

    Israel is a sovereign state created by the UN. Nobody immigrated illegally anyway. The indigenous people have included both Arabs and Jews. The Arabs and Jews were both given the right to their own state under the UN partition plan.

    Tell me again, why the Arabs never got their state.

    Also, answer my question.

    Do you SUPPORT Hamas's actions and believe that this government is a good option for the people of Gaza?


    I've asked you this many times and you've ignored it. I wonder why.
    It seems as if your history, like many ardent Zionists and blinded pro-Israeli's only commences from 1948.

    I suggest you pick up a couple of history textbooks, ones that actually cover pre-1948...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    After a time, the whataboutery really starts to grate me but IDF propagandists are oblivious to it.

    Netanyahu, Chindits, you, Pinzer all engage in it.

    Simple question: WHY?
    I think you and I clearly disagree on the definition of 'whataboutery'.

    Whataboutery:
    The fallacy of relative privation, or appeal to worse problems, is an informal fallacy which attempts to suggest that the opponent's argument should be ignored because there are more important problems in the world, despite the fact that these issues are often completely unrelated to the subject under discussion.
    A well-known example of this fallacy is the response "but there are children starving in Africa," with the implication that any issue less serious than that is not worthy of discussion; or the common saying "I used to lament having no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet."


    From wikipedia.

    Explain how we have engaged in whataboutery under this definition.
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    I think you and I clearly disagree on the definition of 'whataboutery'.

    Whataboutery:
    The fallacy of relative privation, or appeal to worse problems, is an informal fallacy which attempts to suggest that the opponent's argument should be ignored because there are more important problems in the world, despite the fact that these issues are often completely unrelated to the subject under discussion.
    A well-known example of this fallacy is the response "but there are children starving in Africa," with the implication that any issue less serious than that is not worthy of discussion; or the common saying "I used to lament having no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet."


    From wikipedia.

    Explain how we have engaged in whataboutery under this definition.
    Try looking on wiktionary, which is better defined.
    Or "whataboutism" on wikipedia.
    Both are defining Tu Quoque arguments, which is about all I hear out of Chindits, who I assume had their account banned now that Pinzer has come onto the scene in their place arguing in the exact same way, making the exact same arguments (practically word for word in some cases)
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    It seems as if your history, like many ardent Zionists and blinded pro-Israeli's only commences from 1948.

    I suggest you pick up a couple of history textbooks, ones that actually cover pre-1948...
    I have...

    I was the one who told you about there never being a sovereign Palestinian state because the land was under the Ottoman Empire, and never under Arab rule. Once it was under the Roman Empire, and once it was ruled by Jewish people.

    Here is a brief history:

    Ancient Israel, The United and Divided Kingdom

    It's important to note this particular statement before you attempt to twist this source from purdue.edu to serve your Hamas propaganda:

    Our knowledge of the ancient history of Israel is largely based on one source, the Old Testament...As we have already seen with respect to the Stele of Merneptah, when external source material does survive it tends to confirm the general historical outline of the Old Testament; it certainly offers nothing to contradict it

    EDIT: TSR IS AN ARDENT HAMAS SUPPORTER BUT CAN'T EXPLAIN WHY. I guess they don't program their robots with reasoning skills, all they can do is say: Hamas...good, Israel...bad, Hamas...good, Israel... bad. Yes, master!
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Ok, there's currently ethnic cleansing of a 2,000 year old Christian population in Mosul?

    All I'm saying is that NO conflict or incident gets as much press as this.

    Syria got a few days as the main headline at the beginning of the conflict, then drifted in and out of the headline.

    The Israel/Gaza thing has literally been pinned, It moved down a slot after MH17 for a day, then back to the biggest headline.
    Well, a couple of reasons:

    Firstly, there's often a kind of 'familiarity focus' in the media towards countries that, depending on how cynical you are, are more liberal/'Western'/white.

    Secondly, focus on any issue is a vicious circle; when people are more interested in an issue, it gets more media attention, and so more people are interested, and so on.

    To a large extent the media has always given disproportionate attention to this conflict, but the Palestinian side got almost no attention until the First Intifada, by which time an interested audience already existed.

    There's more of a focus on Israel than any other nation. This is fact.
    'Fact' here meaning 'hyperbole'.
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    I think you and I clearly disagree on the definition of 'whataboutery'.

    Whataboutery:
    The fallacy of relative privation, or appeal to worse problems, is an informal fallacy which attempts to suggest that the opponent's argument should be ignored because there are more important problems in the world, despite the fact that these issues are often completely unrelated to the subject under discussion.
    A well-known example of this fallacy is the response "but there are children starving in Africa," with the implication that any issue less serious than that is not worthy of discussion; or the common saying "I used to lament having no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet."


    From wikipedia.

    Explain how we have engaged in whataboutery under this definition.
    It's surprising that you did not post the whole article that exists on Wikipedia. It was only another sentence long. Shall I be an honest chap an post it for you seeing as how you often resort to whataboutery as well as intellectual dishonesty:

    "The word whataboutery has been used to describe this line of argument when used in protesting inconsistent behavior. e.g. "The British even have a term for it: whataboutery. If you are prepared to go to war to protect Libyan civilians from their government, then what about the persecuted in Bahrain?"


    In addition, the definition you posted was in relation to "Fallacy of relative privation". If you want the actual definition of whataboutery, let us consult Wikitionary, the sister dictionary site of Wikipedia, and the FIRST link on Google when one searches for the term:

    whataboutery (plural whatabouteries) (informal, pejorative)

    1. Protesting at hypocrisy; responding to criticism by accusing one's opponent of similar or worse faults.  [quotations ▼]
    2. Protesting at inconsistency; refusing to act in one instance unless similar action is taken in other similar instances.


    Let us then take the definition from a couple of dictionaries:

    Dictionary.com -

    (oftwo communities in conflict) the practice of repeatedly blaming the other side and referring to events from the past

    Macmillan -

    the practice of responding to a difficult question or problem by raising another difficult question or problem, in order to deflect attention from the original question
    What these examples show is that the employers of whataboutery are uncomfortable with the subject under discussion and wish to shift the argument elsewhere.

    Collins -


    • (of two communities in conflict) the practice of repeatedly blaming the other side and referring to events from the past


    I rest my case.
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    Israel is a sovereign state created by the UN. Nobody immigrated illegally anyway. The indigenous people have included both Arabs and Jews. The Arabs and Jews were both given the right to their own state under the UN partition plan.
    As I've said before, the 1947 Partition Plan, was a recommendation, not legally binding, and passed only by the General Assembly and not the Security Council. And Israel ignored its specified borders anyway.
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    (Original post by Quaintsaintrah)
    Hamas was created by Israel!

    Think of it, Hamas would not exist if there was no Israel.
    Think of it, who benefits from Hamas's rocket attacks? Israel does! Israel gets an excuse to do some more killing! Israel and Hamas are best buddies. They both have the same goals, and those are to wipe out each other! Who benefits from these goals? Israel! Because Israel can accomplish its goal and Hamas can't.
    Think of it, they're both always using religious rhetoric, the only difference is that Hamas uses Islamic rhetoric and Israel uses Jewish rhetoric.

    The Hamas-Israel conflict is riddled with circular arguments.
    Israel attacks Palestine because Hamas rockets Israel, and it's Hamas's fault that Israel kills innocent Palestinian babies.
    Hamas attacks Israel because Israel is not lifting the blockade on Gaza, so it's Israel's fault that Israeli civilians are in danger of Hamas rocket attacks.
    The only one not benefitting from Hamas is Palestinians. Israel IS benefitting from Hamas.
    Palestinians are being killed by Israel! Israel has an excuse in Hamas to kill Palestinians!

    Conclusion: Israel created Hamas.
    no, hamas= islamists, there are islamists all over the muslim world pushing for political power. hamas is jsut the gazan representative of this movement. you are now jsut making the same argument i made a week ago - things in palestine will only improve if they kick out all isalmist influences, inc hamas.

    why would israel invented a group hell-bent on the destruction of israel ?:dunce:
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Well, a couple of reasons:

    Firstly, there's often a kind of 'familiarity focus' in the media towards countries that, depending on how cynical you are, are more liberal/'Western'/white.

    Secondly, focus on any issue is a vicious circle; when people are more interested in an issue, it gets more media attention, and so more people are interested, and so on.

    To a large extent the media has always given disproportionate attention to this conflict, but the Palestinian side got almost no attention until the First Intifada, by which time an interested audience already existed.

    'Fact' here meaning 'hyperbole'.
    So you basically agree with me that there is a focus on Israel unlike other nations. Except all you've done is tried to excuse it with all sorts of contortions.

    Strange how Ukraine didn't get this much attention despite being 'white' and 'western'.

    After agreeing with me that there's more of a focus on Israel, you then claim it's hyperbole of me to suggest it.

    LOL!
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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    Tbh, I cook up all my mince if it's about to go off.
    and im sure even hamas want to be careful, there a limit to how many primed rockets youd want left lieing around in a school , health and safety and all that
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    I have...

    I was the one who told you about there never being a sovereign Palestinian state because the land was under the Ottoman Empire, and never under Arab rule. Once it was under the Roman Empire, and once it was ruled by Jewish people.

    Here is a brief history:

    Ancient Israel, The United and Divided Kingdom

    It's important to note this particular statement before you attempt to twist this source from purdue.edu to serve your Hamas propaganda:

    Our knowledge of the ancient history of Israel is largely based on one source, the Old Testament...As we have already seen with respect to the Stele of Merneptah, when external source material does survive it tends to confirm the general historical outline of the Old Testament; it certainly offers nothing to contradict it

    EDIT: TSR IS AN ARDENT HAMAS SUPPORTER BUT CAN'T EXPLAIN WHY. I guess they don't program their robots with reasoning skills, all they can do is say: Hamas...good, Israel...bad, Hamas...good, Israel... bad. Yes, master!
    If you only had two sources (that web page and post-1948), no wonder you seem so ignorant of the current conflict.
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    Unilateral ceasefire declared by IDF (3pm-7pm) (1pm-5pm GMT) but will not apply to "areas where they are fighting on the ground" and if it is attacked, then it will "respond".

    Well, that rules out the Gaza strip then...
 
 
 
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