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what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university watch

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    (Original post by Atomik)
    Hah. I love it when jealous in-the-gutter black people call successful blacks "Uncle Tom", "sell-outs" or "wannabe whitey".
    Its the same as in the UK. Young afro-caribbean boys in school are called "white" as an insult if they do well in class. Apparently to some, being motivated, hard working, and capable is a "white" trait :rolleyes: . Talk about racism...

    People even make fun of Tiger Woods in the US because he isnt "black" enough ... whatever that means, while overlooking the fact that he is only half black.

    (Original post by Atomik)
    I once got racist for saying I thought rap was terrible. Mind you, I can't say I like much 'black' music, to be honest; not my thing. That doesn't make me a "omfg you rayscist" though.
    I have been called racist for saying that I dont find black women attractive in general. When my nigerian friends say they dont like white women, no one bats an eyelid...
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Apprently Afro-Caribbean British and Afro-Americans are significantly more similar in culture than white British and white americans.
    Really? Who said that? I know i said that i believe westernised Africans and Jamaicans(that is to say, those groups who have been living in Britain a long time)- NOT afro americans-i specifically said British to further the "westernised"- have more similarities than the white British and the white French. NOT white british and white americans. Another example of out-of-context word twisting.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Its the same as in the UK. Young afro-caribbean boys in school are called "white" as an insult if they do well in class. Apparently to some, being motivated, hard working, and capable is a "white" trait :rolleyes: . Talk about racism...

    People even make fun of Tiger Woods in the US because he isnt "black" enough ... whatever that means, while overlooking the fact that he is only half black.



    I have been called racist for saying that I dont find black women attractive in general. When my nigerian friends say they dont like white women, no one bats an eyelid...

    I am an absolute prime example of the black boy who does well being called "white"- it happened a lot in my early secondary school years. There is a huge problem with the attitudes of black boys in school. It isnt racist though, as you say. Its hardly racist to say omg you do well in school, white boy. hahaha your clever, you white boy. Surely you must be flattered that they believe superior intelligence to be a "white" thing. They don't realise that if there is any racism in what they are saying, it is them against themselves and other blacks, and not whites!

    When you are mixed race, as i am, it is in some cases harder growing up than if you are one race exclusively. Youa ren't black enough for black boys, white enough for white oiys. You need parents who give you a strong sense of identity that isnt racial to not feel bad about yourself.....
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    i said that i believe westernised Africans and Jamaicans(that is to say, those groups who have been living in Britain a long time)- NOT afro americans-i specifically said British to further the "westernised"- have more similarities than the white British and the white French. NOT white british and white americans. Another example of out-of-context word twisting.
    Oh really? Did you now? You said BRITISH WESTERNISED BLACKS? Groups living in Britian for a long time?

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    becuase of ho vastly different they are, in comparison to the huge similarities between those of "black culture"- particularly westernised blacks.
    Notice the PARTICULARLY - ie western blacks but NOT EXCLUSIVELY western blacks.

    Then you go on:

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Africans and Jamaicans here act similarly as a group identity. they like the same music. They talk in a vastly similar manner- Africans have even adopted the jamaican creole-type style accent.
    No mention of BRITISH yet.

    Maybe in he next bit?

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Westernised black people are way more similar than the french in comparison the the british in comparison to the german, etc etc.
    No mention of BRITISH westernised blacks.... hmmm interesting

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Another example of out-of-context word twisting.
    No. Another example of you lying.
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    It isnt racist though, as you say. Its hardly racist to say omg you do well in school, white boy. hahaha your clever, you white boy.
    When the word "white" is used as an insult, it is racist.

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Surely you must be flattered that they believe superior intelligence to be a "white" thing.
    They arent trying to say that as much as they are trying to say - you are a geek, you are soft, you are white. Working hard is seen as being contrary to being macho.
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    (Original post by Atomik)
    The intelligent black person does not want to be labelled as a rap-listening thug!
    I agree, I don't think that anyone would want to be labelled as a thug, but does "rap-listening" come into this? Does listening to rap turn someone into a violent thug? I think you have your own prejudices you need to challenge.

    I think that if a white or caucasian society was formed then, yes, it probably would be suspected, initially at least, of being racist. Consider the kinds of groups and societies that have been formed in the past for whites only. What groups come to mind? Neo-Nazis? Ku Klux Klan? Most of the groups you first think of will probably be groups whose aim is to reassert white supremacy. In comparison, most ethnic minority groups in modern history didn't seek to achieve supremacy for their race, but equality, which I'm sure most people will agree is a good thing.

    If these groups aren't founded to seek equal rights, then it is to celebrate their culture. The USA and the UK both have an established 'white' culture. So why shouldn't ethnic minorities form societies to celebrate their own culture? It is a chance to meet and socialise with people of a similar culture, people with similar ideals and morals. Why shouldn't we give these people the chance? Surely it would be facist (ooh, taboo!) to stop people from mixing with those they identify with culturally?

    To those who argue that ethnic minorities should not have the chance to form societies celebrating their culture, I ask this: even in a country such as the USA with a culture relatively similar to our own, if you chose to live there, would you not appreciate any contact with English people? Would you not enjoy spending the time with someone who has their English culture in common with you? Someone who loves English culture like you do? If you truly loved the culture of an ethnic minority, then I'm sure there would be nothing stopping you attending the society, but let's be honest, you don't, so there is nothing for you to be upset about. You don't need to start a "white" or "caucasian" society as I suspect that most of your friends and people you meet day-to-day are white and English, and the way you live your life is according to an "English" culture.

    Surely creating a white society would just be a petty excuse to exclude those who you feel exclude you from their own society, yet it is you who chooses to exclude yourself from their societies as you don't choose to embrace their culture. Don't want to embrace their culture? Then stop complaining!
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    Doesnt it have a little bit to do with history? In history, it is generally blacks that have been subject to racism by the whites, and so, it is almost a prerequisite of racism in our perceptions for there to be "white" involved. We have sort of put it upon ourselves that it is whites who are racist against blacks, and hence, any act which seems to be slightly exclusive for whites, is seen as something of grave racism. While it doesnt work the same way the other way. We have gotten used to the notion that it is whites who are racist against blacks so much that when blacks open up something exclusively for them, it is not regarded as quite the racist action.
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    post 196. the use of the word "here"- jamaicans and africans "HERE". And mate, i'm in Britain.
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    I think that if a white or caucasian society was formed then, yes, it probably would be suspected, initially at least, of being racist.
    Thats rather part of my point actually.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    Consider the kinds of groups and societies that have been formed in the past for whites only. What groups come to mind? Neo-Nazis? Ku Klux Klan?
    We arent talking about a whites only group though. It would be open to all.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    Most of the groups you first think of will probably be groups whose aim is to reassert white supremacy. In comparison, most ethnic minority groups in modern history didn't seek to achieve supremacy for their race, but equality, which I'm sure most people will agree is a good thing.
    Certainly, although having exclusive groups, or ones that aim to help people on the basis of race hinders equality IMO.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    If these groups aren't founded to seek equal rights, then it is to celebrate their culture. The USA and the UK both have an established 'white' culture. So why shouldn't ethnic minorities form societies to celebrate their own culture? It is a chance to meet and socialise with people of a similar culture, people with similar ideals and morals. Why shouldn't we give these people the chance? Surely it would be facist (ooh, taboo!) to stop people from mixing with those they identify with culturally?
    No one is advocating stopping people celebrating their culture (not me at least), but I AM pointing out that there is something of a double standard, which was highlighted by your point above, in that people would often label such a "caucasian" society, as racist... perhaps many would not, but I think the reaction would be different to a "black society".

    Additionally, in practice, though perhaps open to all, many such societies specifcally target people of colour rather than the entire student body.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    To those who argue that ethnic minorities should not have the chance to form societies celebrating their culture,
    Since that doesnt apply to me, I will leave this unaddressed.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    Surely creating a white society would just be a petty excuse to exclude those who you feel exclude you from their own society, yet it is you who chooses to exclude yourself from their societies as you don't choose to embrace their culture. Don't want to embrace their culture? Then stop complaining!
    Again - such a society would not be exclusionary.
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    And laws, i took it a bit further on your"what is culture£" thread
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    post 196. the use of the word "here"- jamaicans and africans "HERE". And mate, i'm in Britain.


    Yes you did, In one sentence. Then in the on BEFORE and after it made general comments about WESTERNISED BLACKS. If you meant British blacks then the word Westernised is really redundant for the most part.

    Plus as you have failed to acknowledge you said:

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    in comparison to the huge similarities between those of "black culture"-
    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    particularly westernised blacks.


    PARTICULARLY - as said - ie western blacks but NOT EXCLUSIVELY western blacks.

    The use of the term "western blacks" when you mean "British Westernised blacks" is very imprecise, incredibly unclear, and is not made any clearer by teh fact that you used here once, and apparently made the point with more clarity on an entirely separate thread.

    Any chance you want to explain away the use of “particularly” though?
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    (Original post by manthi)
    Doesnt it have a little bit to do with history? In history, it is generally blacks that have been subject to racism by the whites, and so, it is almost a prerequisite of racism in our perceptions for there to be "white" involved. We have sort of put it upon ourselves that it is whites who are racist against blacks, and hence, any act which seems to be slightly exclusive for whites, is seen as something of grave racism. While it doesnt work the same way the other way. We have gotten used to the notion that it is whites who are racist against blacks so much that when blacks open up something exclusively for them, it is not regarded as quite the racist action.
    Indeed - it is a historically inspired double standard, but a double standard nonetheless.

    It would be far better to treat everyone in the same way, rather than employ different rules for different races.
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    Westernised black people, that is to say, black people who have lived in Britain since childhood or whatever,

    Ok - I have now read this. What you are doing is misdefining a term, and then complaining that I interpreted it correctly.

    A WESTERNISED Black person is one who has lived in and adopted the cultures of the WEST - not Britain. You mean ANGLICIZED...

    It's not my fault if you are imprecise.

    Not to mention that pesky little "particularly" which again, as said, implied that you point was NOT confined to even WESTERN blacks but ALL of them.
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    You don't need to start a "white" or "caucasian" society as I suspect that most of your friends and people you meet day-to-day are white and English, and the way you live your life is according to an "English" culture.
    Where do people disagree with this again? Because it's obviously the most sensible point to this whole debate.
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    (Original post by Laika)
    Where do people disagree with this again? Because it's obviously the most sensible point to this whole debate.
    The same would apply to many afro-caribbeans. They live their life immersed within their culture very often.

    Not to mention the fact that SOME white people in this country are NOT in the position set out - they live in areas where THEY are the minority. We have been over this.

    However, its not really the point I am making. Perhaps you might see it as superfulous... but others may not.

    I would just like to point out that I have absolutely no interest in joinging a "white society"... To be honest, I abhor most university societies as simply ways to get drunk - I dont need to join a club for that.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    The same would apply to many afro-caribbeans. They live their life immersed within their culture very often.
    I don't know how true this is really. It's near impossible to totally separate yourself from the culture of the society in which you live and furthermore this isn't sufficient argument against University societies, which bring together those with similar interests in a new environment regardless of their lifestyle.

    Not to mention the fact that SOME white people in this country are NOT in the position set out - they live in areas where THEY are the minority. We have been over this.
    Indeed, and I maintain that it's a flimsy point. Britain is a white society, small areas with a higher percntage of other races do not change this.

    However, its not really the point I am making. Perhaps you might see it as superfulous... but others may not.

    I would just like to point out that I have absolutely no interest in joinging a "white society"... To be honest, I abhor most university societies as simply ways to get drunk - I dont need to join a club for that.
    Good point.
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    (Original post by Laika)
    I don't know how true this is really. It's near impossible to totally separate yourself from the culture of the society in which you live and furthermore this isn't sufficient argument against University societies, which bring together those with similar interests in a new environment regardless of their lifestyle.
    For instance - in the UoL, many of the ethnic minorities live at home, in a neighbourhood and an area in which they are very much within their culture.

    Regardless, whites also encounter other cultures in their day to day life.

    There are people at each end of the spectrum.

    (Original post by Laika)
    Indeed, and I maintain that it's a flimsy point. Britain is a white society, small areas with a higher percntage of other races do not change this.
    Tell that to someone who has spent their entire life as a white minority. Their reality is exactly the same as another minority in a white area.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Thats rather part of my point actually.
    I went on to explain why, don't just pick and choose pieces of my arguments and disregard the rest when it is to be read as a whole.

    (Original post by Lawz-)
    We arent talking about a whites only group though. It would be open to all.
    So what would this group stand for, what would its purpose be? To meet with other white people? How is that different from day to day life? If the group was open to all then it wouldnt be racist would it? But then I'm sure that this double-standard you talk of with ethnic minority groups is hardly a double-standard since most are not exclusive.

    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Certainly, although having exclusive groups, or ones that aim to help people on the basis of race hinders equality IMO.
    I think that you are too wrapped up in your idealist views on world equality. The world ISN'T equal, it is something we seek to achieve. If blacks feel they aren't treated equally then it is in their interests as a race to start a group to do something about it. As for hindering equality, I think that Martin Luther King did wonders for black equality. He didn't have an exclusively black following, but then he fought for equality for blacks, something which doesn't directly affect white people.

    (Original post by Lawz-)
    No one is advocating stopping people celebrating their culture (not me at least), but I AM pointing out that there is something of a double standard, which was highlighted by your point above, in that people would often label such a "caucasian" society, as racist... perhaps many would not, but I think the reaction would be different to a "black society".
    I have answered this already which people may take offence to an exclusively white society.

    Additionally, in practice, though perhaps open to all, many such societies specifcally target people of colour rather than the entire student body.
    Of course, who would a Chinese society primarily target for membership other than Chinese people? I think your opinion is an example of political correctness gone mad.
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    I went on to explain why, don't just pick and choose pieces of my arguments and disregard the rest when it is to be read as a whole.


    I actually addressed every LETTER of your post.

    Anyway, my point is that people WOULD see it as racist, perhaps because of the assumptions you listed, but the fact remains those assumptions are merely that... and you know what they say about assumptions?

    (Original post by wacabac)
    So what would this group stand for, what would its purpose be? To meet with other white people? How is that different from day to day life? If the group was open to all then it wouldnt be racist would it? But then I'm sure that this double-standard you talk of with ethnic minority groups is hardly a double-standard since most are not exclusive.


    The thread has been pretty clear. A society open to all, to learn about enagage in and celebrate white culture.

    Once again - I AM NOT talking about exclusive groups.
    The Double standard comes with the reaction to a non-exclusive white society vs a non-exlcusive black one.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    I think that you are too wrapped up in your idealist views on world equality. The world ISN'T equal, it is something we seek to achieve.


    Absolutely.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    If blacks feel they aren't treated equally then it is in their interests as a race to start a group to do something about it.


    Not necessarily. If they FEEL they aren’t? They could well be wrong, and often are. The US provides wonderful examples of this, where things like basic math tests for the police force are considered "racist".

    Additionally, the government may well be a better forum and tool to redress such inequality.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    As for hindering equality, I think that Martin Luther King did wonders for black equality. He didn't have an exclusively black following, but then he fought for equality for blacks, something which doesn't directly affect white people.


    I would never contend otherwise. Of course he did. But that doesn’t really affect my general point: that to aim to help people ON THE basis of skin colour to overcome problems that ARE NOT EXCLUSIVE to their race is counter-productive and divisive.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    Of course, who would a Chinese society primarily target for membership other than Chinese people? I think your opinion is an example of political correctness gone
    (Original post by wacabac)
    mad.


    I worded it badly, when I say primarily, I mean ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY. Anyway, there is a point to be made that the literature and such produced by such groups should be aimed at all people, especially if much of it is designed to enjoy and celebrate a particular culture. You dont need to be black to enjoy black culture.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Ok - I have now read this. What you are doing is misdefining a term, and then complaining that I interpreted it correctly.

    A WESTERNISED Black person is one who has lived in and adopted the cultures of the WEST - not Britain. You mean ANGLICIZED...

    It's not my fault if you are imprecise.

    Not to mention that pesky little "particularly" which again, as said, implied that you point was NOT confined to even WESTERN blacks but ALL of them.
    Remember when i accused you of nit- picking the way things were said instead of arguig the gist of things?

    Now we've established what i meant to say, and should have said more explicitly, address the points i made, don't just move on.
 
 
 
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