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Maggie Thatcher - The worst PM in UK's history and an economic failure Watch

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    (Original post by J_H123698)
    On a more serious note.

    The economy grew due to the discovery of North Sea Oil above all else. During this period of supposed growth we also had two recessions of vast, vast unemployment and her response? "Get on your bike"
    The economy changed, this is little to do with Thatcherism, many wrongly assume it was, but instead of helping those who struggled to adapt to the new world, to pay their way, she gave them the dogma of what unemployment is today "lazy/living off benifits/etc" when in reality they were unskilled and not fit for the workplace - coupled with the two recessions her policies helped to create.
    She left those who were unskilled and out of work to rot on benefits - this is her legacy in welfare - as the bill increased year after year.
    At the same time she cut spending in schools and hospitals, as the welfare bill shot up and up. By 1997 by all accounts the NHS and the school system were an utter farce - under spending vastly below European averages. Failed.

    She signed the Single European Act then hypocritically changed tune. Nothing changed Europe most than the Single European Act, it was a compromise of Thatcherite wants for free market, with social democratic protection of workers - when, the ****ing 'hard negotiator' she pretended to be found this out a few years alter she claimed to be duped. HA! She underminded John Major and almost every single Tory leader since over this issue before they all came round to being consumed paranoia extremists following her supposed 'legacy' in Europe. Failed.

    In Northern Ireland - disgraceful. Her posturing cost lives on both sides of the Irish Sea. Look at the great work John Major and then Tony Blair did to see just how wrong she was. She fueled fire the problem which was already huge. Failed.

    She helped to bring about the end of the Cold War - a noble achievement but she ruined that legacy with Pol Pot, calling Mandela a terrorist, trying to block the reunification of Germany, Pinochet and it goes on. Failed.

    Her privatisation and house building policy. She sold off much and we pay this price today. On the plus side she helped make the richer richer, and many middle/working class people better off too. But it was a short term gain for long term pain. Those who won from buying their house or quick shares in a former nationalised industry grew and swelled up the middle class and won her votes and the adulation she has today. But at what price? The un-affordable house prices that cripple and block young low earners from joining the market? The fact she treated and we have since as owning a house as substantial cover for old age care? To pay huge energy and gas bills to private shareholders or, as "THE PATRIOT PRIME MINISTER" allowed - to foreign governments and business - like the French in the energy sector, or arriva buses in Holland, or the conglomerate (undertaken by Major) on the railways. The prices rise and instead of seeing the results, the money back - we see nothing. Those who gained won. Congratulations to them - but the rest of us? What exactly do we get? Short termism. Winners and losers.

    The Unions. She won. They had to be beaten and calmed of that there is no doubt and they brought a lot of the fault upon themselves but there was no need to humiliate the miners, to divide the communities and leave so many with so little hope after. There was a direct us vs them policy. A government of a civilized country cannot function like that - to fight a battle against your own people - win and then let them die. It is not right - regardless of the politics.

    Hillsborough - the less said the better but again I am sure, as is everyone in my city that the political position of Liverpool (Against her) did not help the way we were treated. It went to the top of government. She will live with this and her response to the disaster forever.

    Sexism - first female prime minister - but who did she bring to her cabinet? Look at the records. Some feminist.

    Racism - Liverpool and London saw rioting.

    Soctland - Poll tax guinea pig and neglected.

    The Big Bang - her legacy and this economic policy left us (Not just her, also New Labour and Major) greatly exposed - more than any other country in the West to a financial crisis. When it hit we had to pay the most. This is why our deficit is so huge because we had the most to pay - our spending was not huge and our deficit very respectable before the crash, it shot up because we were so exposed. This is a legacy of our response during Thatcherism to the changing economy. Many think she called it right - history proves now this was wrong.

    The Belgrano - dodgy ground or not? Everyone would say dodgy is the nicest thing you could say here.

    She failed in so many areas, caused so much harm and that is why she is hated and we celebrate. You shouldn't confuse conviction with greatness - she was a conviction Prime Minister but she promised to bring "harmony where there is discord" - I mean come on Maggie, **** off.
    Great message I'm surprised that someone has in fact some energy to combat those right-wing, ignorant Thatcherite trolls. Well I don't usually have, but I got kind of annoyed and actually wanted to participate and as I've read your message I've realized that most points are covered there! UK & Ireland are my main focus for my final exams.

    Greetings from now-united Germany.
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    I don't think Thatcher was the worst PM and an economic failure, despite the 21 points made by the OP.

    This is because we could find plenty such points for PMs starting from Sir Robert Walpole.

    She pursued her idealist version of Britain. Of course you can be Tony Blair and do very little and take little criticism for it, but PMs such as Peel, Churchill, Attlee or Thatcher can either be hated or admired for the things they actually did do.
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    From a historical perspective and through analysis of economic indicators, it's pretty hard to say that, overall, she was an economic failure. The extent to which she was successful is highly debatable, but a failure is difficult to justify. And despite the reems and reems of debate that goes on arguing this perspective, it's just not convincing enough, when you see through all the socialist rhetoric. And I say that as someone on the centre-left...

    Most of your points are pretty weak, lists like that serve practically no purpose. No clue why you got so many upvotes.

    Frankly this can be debated to death, but there's always going to be those who look on her positively and those who despise her - neither side is reliable. As bizarre as this might sound given I'm posting this on TSR, there's actually quite a lot of better things to do - she's dead now, it all happened several decades ago. Move on with your life.

    Edit: Ha, a balanced answer is damned to be unpopular I suppose. Whatever. Neg away.
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    (Original post by Evie Ninnenbaum)
    Also, I find it ridiculous how people credit Thatcher with an economic success of the 1980s: almost as if one would believe that she was the architect of the 1980s boom. As a matter of fact she had nothing to do with the computing boom that irrevocably changed 1980s and benefited global capitalism as a whole.

    We could just as well have mrokayguy123 instead of Margaret Thatcher and the boom would occur. Her monetary policy & 1980s boom are completely different matters.
    That's true but it applies to every non-statist PM. Blair enjoyed an unprecedented economic growth alongside Clinton with their MP3 & internet services boom.

    (Original post by YourDream)
    Thatcher, the worst PM since Chamberlain.
    It's irrelevant but imagine having Thatcher instead of Chamberlain, though. We would have been fighting with our land armies in Germany by 1938 privatizing everything we liberate.
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    J_H123698, A few issues with some of the things you said.

    (Original post by J_H123698)
    calling Mandela a terrorist
    I like how the left jump on that and ignore the fact that she did more to get him released and apartheid abolished than any other contempary world leader.

    (Original post by J_H123698)
    The un-affordable house prices that cripple and block young low earners from joining the market?
    Yeah, that's right, she made Labour allow an open door immigration policy that caused a population boom while doing diddly squat in the way of building new houses during their thirteen years in power. Yep, totally her fault :rolleyes:

    (Original post by J_H123698)
    The Unions. She won. They had to be beaten and calmed of that there is no doubt and they brought a lot of the fault upon themselves but there was no need to humiliate the miners, to divide the communities and leave so many with so little hope after. There was a direct us vs them policy. A government of a civilized country cannot function like that - to fight a battle against your own people - win and then let them die. It is not right - regardless of the politics.
    Where was this humiliation?
    There was a direct us vs them policy because that's how it was in reality. You're talking as if the mining union wasn't attempting to topple the democratically elected government.

    (Original post by J_H123698)
    Sexism - first female prime minister - but who did she bring to her cabinet? Look at the records. Some feminist.
    She never claimed to be a feminist and was outspoken for her dislike of the ideology.

    (Original post by J_H123698)
    The Big Bang - her legacy and this economic policy left us (Not just her, also New Labour and Major) greatly exposed - more than any other country in the West to a financial crisis. When it hit we had to pay the most. This is why our deficit is so huge because we had the most to pay - our spending was not huge and our deficit very respectable before the crash, it shot up because we were so exposed. This is a legacy of our response during Thatcherism to the changing economy. Many think she called it right - history proves now this was wrong.
    No, history does no such thing. As Ken Clarke explained on QT, Thatcher's deregulation of the city was about opening the financial sector up from its elitism, stopping it being a posh toffs club where you had to know someone who knew someone to be an investment banker, about actually attracting some foreign investment into the country.
    It was Labour's round of deregulation that was completely unnecessary and harmful.

    (Original post by J_H123698)
    The Belgrano - dodgy ground or not? Everyone would say dodgy is the nicest thing you could say here.
    No, 'everyone' would most certainly not say such a thing. Why oh why do some people insist on trying to stir stuff up with the Belgrano when even the bloody Argentine navy themselves accept the attack was legitimate?
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    (Original post by Bulbasaur)
    Most of your points are pretty weak, lists like that serve practically no purpose. No clue why you got so many upvotes.
    I think the points are okay for the opening. You couldn't expect her/him to write you an essay on each of these points and provide detailed, elaborated evidence because people would simply not read the thread in the first place.

    What would you expand it/replace it with? Share your centre-left perspective.
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    (Original post by William Pitt)
    I think the points are okay for the opening. You couldn't expect her/him to write you an essay on each of these points and provide detailed, elaborated evidence because people would simply not read the thread in the first place.

    What would you expand it/replace it with? Share your centre-left perspective.
    They aren't factual though. The vast majority of the points are debatable but are expressed as fact. And not even all of them are inherently bad things. And further still, just like some people are saying that certain successes can't be attributed to her, is it not hypocritical to accept some of the failures (and indeed there were many) were not her own fault?

    Focusing on a few specific points and expanding on them (perhaps amalgamating several) would have made for a better opening post I think. Doesn't have to be long. That list was fairly long in itself.
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    I'll party when her legacy dies.
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    (Original post by J_H123698)
    The Belgrano - dodgy ground or not? Everyone would say dodgy is the nicest thing you could say here.
    In August 1994, an official Argentine Defence Ministry report written by armed forces auditor Eugenio Miari was released which described the sinking of the Belgrano as "a legal act of war", explaining that "acts of war can be carried out in all of the enemy's territory" and "they can also take place in those areas over which no state can claim sovereignty, in international waters"


    No offense but when the enemy acknowledges it as legal you are clutching at straws.
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    (Original post by WalkingTolerance)
    Thatcherism produced:

    1) Shifting of the means of production to the developing countries for cheap, exploiting labour power

    2) Record levels of unemployment reaching higher than what can be witnessed in the present-day ordoliberal Poland

    3) Making the British economy entirely dependent on the finance sector, more so than Switzerland

    4) Creating the gigantic monopolies and oligarchs alongside, such as the Six main banks, Six main energy companies so that we could compete with perestroikan Russia

    5) Destroying the leftover of respect, dignity and influence for the organized labour which has been remarked by the greatest faculties of mind as essential for the commodity producing society, i.e. Adam Smith

    6) As far as practicing fierce capitalism, Baroness was willing to give in to American companies in Westland Affair

    7) Marketization of education which, as opposed to 'parentocracy' created the A-C economy with millions being permanently written off and the wealthy having a substantial socio-economic advantage in education ever since

    8) Devastated the concept of social mobility and meritocracy with repealing of the measures despite the Black Report of 1980

    9) Despite being the outspoken Eurosceptic, Baroness in fact passed more power and always complied with the Brussels policy

    10) Failed at Hong Kong

    11) Falklands War Criminal

    12) Poll tax was the final blow to any concept of fiscal justice

    13) Led to the record levels of crime

    14) Destroyed the socialized NHS with market influence of private companies, making the private sector medical services superior to public

    15) Portrayed the Celtic nations as inferior, especially in the case of Northern Ireland struggle or Wales

    16) Britain's childhood-poverty rate in 1997 was the highest in Europe

    17) During her government Britain's Gini coefficient reflected this growing difference, going from 0.25 in 1979 to 0.34 in 1990.

    18) Shifting back the Victorian societal values undermining ethnic minorities, different sexual orientations, different family units and any 'deviance from mainstream'

    19) Re-enchantment of the world with her Methodist beliefs and damaging the process of secularization

    20) Inflicted a severe damage upon the pensioners and the safety net system desired for them despite the most loyal contribution to the British economy and wealth creation throughout their best years of their lives

    21) Last but not least, Baroness alienated the Britons from their communities. Philosophically speaking: separation of the subject from the object was at its zenith. Record levels of suicide, mental illness, depression and millions of lives betrayed from childhood, parenthood and senility.
    1) No the shift had already began, hence why she closed down the mines because coal could be bought in Poland much cheaper. Sorry- I know that removes every northerners sole reason to hate her.

    2) That is because all the northerners and Southern-Welsh people thought they wouldn't need school qualifications for the rest of their lives, simply because they entered employment digging holes in the ground.

    3) Well what else was she supposed to do when manufacturing was being done cheaper abroad? Make the 3 million tools become farmers?

    5) Socialist crap- all the miners had sod-all qualifications and thats why they spent their lives digging dirty holes in the ground. Nothing glorious about it whatsoever! Their educational qualifications (which would have helped them find employment afterwards) certainly weren't anything to boast about!

    6) ??

    7) How exactly did she marketise education???

    8) Labour ruined social mobility when they closed the Grammar schools.

    9) Yes- its not like she got us our rebate and said "NO" to Europe quite famously.... :rolleyes:

    10) ???

    11) Oh god- now you really are proving what I have thought all along- the left are traitors against Britain. How exactly is she a war criminal for DEFENDING the Falkland islands? Moron

    12) Possibly agree- dont know enough about it

    13) No- that's the fault of the 3 million tools who had no qualifications.

    14) How can introducing private healthcare have any effect on a completely separate organisation (the NHS)?

    15) I think its safe to say they probably are inferior. What are their greatest achievements to date?

    16) Yes- and? Thats what happens when you have a nation of ex-miners who think they are too good for school qualifications. Now our "how much money the poor receive for doing absolutely nothing" ranking is #1 in the world. Proud?

    17) and again- if you have 3 million idiots who think they don't need school qualifications generally bad things will happen down the line.

    18) "different family units", pretty sure its been statistically proven children who grow up in two-parent families are more likely to succeed in life and less likely to commit crime. Or would you like to visit Barnsley/Rotherham/Salford etc and see how the offspring of the single mothers are coming along?

    19) ???

    20) and yet forgot to save money for a rainy day (retirement)?

    21) So you mean because a lot of uneducated "im too good for qualifications" miners became alcoholics and druggies- that's the fault of Thatcher and not the ex-miner for failing to secure new employment?

    I am so glad you don't shape our country!

    RIP Thatcher
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    (Original post by Shaker1903)
    I'll party when her legacy dies.
    Well as life is inherently a case of survival of the fittest- you won't be partying soon....

    Awww- I have to feel sorry for those in life who acknowledge they aren't the "fittest" and hate the concept
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    (Original post by orange9)
    will a car insurance company going bust mean a town becomes a ghost town?
    Did nobody responsible for the town (i.e. the Labour council) never think "geee- we're a little over-reliant on the mine here"...?


    (Original post by orange9)
    will there be hundreds of other car insurance companies who will be hiring new staff?
    Yes


    (Original post by orange9)
    did the miners have alternative mining or jobs in industry to go into?
    Did the miners bother to get some basic school qualifications?
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    (Original post by EvilOfficer)
    Traitor of the Polish People's Republic! Bourgeois class ticket to Siberia for you. :devil3:



    Of course it is = ) Sorry, I didn't mean to portray it otherwise. We even have chapels named after her in my city. As a matter of fact, my mother personally met her when she was in Gdansk during the Solidarnosc zenith. I just wanted to make a point not to place the Eastern Europe into one anti-establishment, pro-western package as it wasn't the case at all, for one shall think of people as free-thinking individuals as Baroness would say.



    shhhh! :innocent:
    Wonder what people in Eastern Europe make of Boris :heart:

    (Original post by Shaker1903)
    I'll party when her legacy dies.
    Her legacy will live long after you have departed...
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    Thatcher’s real Legacy:

    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index...rs-real-legacy
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    (Original post by Maths Tutor)
    Thatcher’s real Legacy:

    http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index...rs-real-legacy

    Do try and debate properly maths tutor instead of cutting and pasting SNP financed websites.
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    (Original post by Karla_Steinbach)
    I'm Dutch and I truly love Britons as a nation (we're sort of distant cousins with the English Saxons) but I must say Falklands simply do not and should not belong to Britain.
    Then Aruba, Curacao, Sint Maarten, Bonaire, St Eustatius and Saba simply do not and should not belong to the Netherlands.
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    (Original post by Karla_Steinbach)
    I'm Dutch and I truly love Britons as a nation (we're sort of distant cousins with the English Saxons) but I must say Falklands simply do not and should not belong to Britain.

    Should they belong to Argentine? That's disputable.

    The point about Falklands War - yes - it was a criminal act as no sea warfare and airbombarding was necessary to sink the ships full of Argentinian men retreating with a white flag!
    The people who live there want to be British it was a 99% vote to be British. Why not give Argentina 1% it's fair.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    The Methodist and CoE churches she attended might have something to say about that.
    No. Thatcher was Jewish in her origin but raised a goy.
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    (Original post by Benjie)
    The people who live there want to be British it was a 99% vote to be British. Why not give Argentina 1% it's fair.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Firstly it wasn't 1%- it was something like 3 people out of 1600 who voted.

    Secondly, they didn't vote in favour of Argentina ruling the Falklands, they simply voted against the British ruling it.

    Now jog on
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    (Original post by kate_louise21)
    How can people honestly say she is worse than the goverment we have now ? look at what the goverment is doing now ..... and THAT was better than Thatcher? Hell no!
    Stop going on about the current Government- if you want to *****, do it about the 1997 to 2010 Labour Government. This Government have hardly touched the country.
 
 
 
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