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    (Original post by castlemadeofsand)
    I forgot that everything was completely fine and dandy before Hamas came along........
    It wasn't, but Hamas sure aren't making it any better. If in 2005, at the time of Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, Hamas had decided to use the opportunity to build a functioning economy (maybe even plan on holding an election!), rather than spend Iranian money on firing rockets into Israel, neither Cast Lead, Pillar of Defense or Protective Edge would have occurred. Israel would live in peace with Gaza and neither side would fear for their lives.

    Obviously it's not quite so one-sided as I may suggest. There have been some quite convincing reports of Israeli war crimes in all three of those operations. I deplore the use of white phosphorus on residential areas by them, for instance, in 2009. But that doesn't change the fact that Hamas are the origin to all of it and they have the power to stop it.
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    (Original post by Elie Bergman)
    Nobody would object to the Allied bombing of Berlin in WWII. Nobody would call England an "Terrorist State" because it knowingly allowed innocent civilians to be killed. Only the most sentimental little soul is so naive to think that in war innocent people won't be killed.

    Imagine IF it were Hamas with the Iron Dome, Hamas with the military superpower, Hamas with the Nuclear weapons. Israel would be ashes and dust by sundown, and issues of "humanitarianism" would be spat upon by these so called "freedom fighters" we so ignorantly praise. How anybody in the educated west can sympathise with Islamic Jihadists who not only kill innocent Israelis but WILLINGLY sacrifice innocent Palestinians in the name of this "holy war", is beyond reason.
    Why would HAMAS want to make their own land uninhabitable?
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    It wasn't, but Hamas sure aren't making it any better. If in 2005, at the time of Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, Hamas had decided to use the opportunity to build a functioning economy (maybe even plan on holding an election!), rather than spend Iranian money on firing rockets into Israel, neither Cast Lead, Pillar of Defense or Protective Edge would have occurred. Israel would live in peace with Gaza and neither side would fear for their lives.

    Obviously it's not quite so one-sided as I may suggest. There have been some quite convincing reports of Israeli war crimes in all three of those operations. I deplore the use of white phosphorus on residential areas by them, for instance, in 2009. But that doesn't change the fact that Hamas are the origin to all of it and they have the power to stop it.
    Well, it is a little difficult to do that if you are blockaded and there are severe restrictions on imports (Pasta was banned until the US told told them that they were being ludicrous). Furthermore, when the Israeli's withhold tax receipts from the PA because they wanted a unity government and carry out airstrikes when they don't get their own way, one would be forgiven for thinking Israel is not intent on destroying the hope of a Palestinian State.

    If you look at the requests of the Palestinians (reproduced below), which one do you actually disagree with:


    1. The withdrawal of Israeli military tanks from the border fence area to a distance that enables Gaza farmers to access their fields and tend them freely.
    2. Freeing all Palestinian prisoners detained after the abduction and killing of three Israeli teenagers in the southern West Bank including those who were freed as part of Gilad Shalit prisoner swap. This precondition also includes softening procedures against all prisoners in Israeli custody.
    3. An end to the siege on the coastal enclave and the reopening of all border crossings.
    4. The opening of Gaza's international seaport under UN monitoring.
    5. An increase in Gaza fishing zone to 10 nautical miles and an increase in the size of permissible fishing boats.
    6. International monitoring of the Rafah crossing into Egypt.
    7. Closing Gaza airspace to Israeli aircraft.
    8. Permission to Gaza resident to be allowed to visit Jerusalem and pray in the al-Aqsa Mosque.
    9. No interference in Palestinian internal affairs including political arrangements and the reconciliation agreement and all its consequences.
    10. Re-establishment of the Gaza industrial zone.
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    7) and 9)

    Why would Israel allow the party (Hamas), which devotes its existence to Israel's non-existence, to recuperate and gain political power without Israeli interference? You may disagree with Israel's right to exist, but it would be absurd for Israel to give breathing room to the very organization that seeks its destruction.
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    Palestinians resume rocket fire on Israel
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    (Original post by Elie Bergman)
    7) and 9)
    Care to expand on that?
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    See edit
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    (Original post by Elie Bergman)
    Why would Israel allow the party (Hamas), which devotes its existence to Israel's non-existence, to recuperate and gain political power without Israeli interference? You may disagree with Israel's right to exist, but it would be absurd for Israel to give breathing room to the very organization that seeks its destruction.
    Because despite Israeli's interference (blocking voters, detaining HAMAS members, running interference) in the 2006 elections deemed "free and transparent", HAMAS still managed to win.

    Now that HAMAS is working on a unity deal with Fatah, Israel does not like this so it throws a tantrum in order to cause division and fracture this fragile agreement.

    Israel is no worse than a bully.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Because despite Israeli's interference (blocking voters, detaining HAMAS members, running interference) in the 2006 elections deemed "free and transparent", HAMAS still managed to win.

    Now that HAMAS is working on a unity deal with Fatah, Israel does not like this so it throws a tantrum in order to cause division and fracture this fragile agreement.

    Israel is no worse than a bully.
    The fact that Hamas STILL managed to win is WHY Israel WILL NOT allow an independent Palestinian state.
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    (Original post by Elie Bergman)
    The fact that Hamas STILL managed to win is WHY Israel WILL NOT allow an independent Palestinian state.
    So if it was a party other than HAMAS, you think Israel would acquiesce with the requests?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So if it was a party other than HAMAS, you think Israel would acquiesce with the requests?
    They got close in the past with more liberal opponents. Israel will never willingly give up it's power in the middle east, no matter how much moral high ground it's opponents claim to have. Yet with this said, this does not rule out the possibility of a Palestinian state subject to given provisos, i.e. No military, heavy surveillance etc...
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    (Original post by Elie Bergman)
    They got close in the past with more liberal opponents. Israel will never willingly give up it's power in the middle east, no matter how much moral high ground it's opponents claim to have. Yet with this said, this does not rule out the possibility of a Palestinian state subject to given provisos, i.e. No military, heavy surveillance etc...
    The Likud Party, which currently governs has explicitly ruled out that possibility in their Charter:

    "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. "

    "The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."

    "Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem."


    Now, the "other side" wants to deny you your State and in return, you need to allow them to interfere in their political matters.

    I don't even know what to say. The sheer arrogance and aggression shown by the Israeli's is beyond belief given the history of Jews not 80 years previous...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    The Likud Party, which currently governs has explicitly ruled out that possibility in their Charter:

    "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. "
    This is correct. Israel would be foolish to give the Palestinians sovereignty. Why would you give the nation which rejects your right of existence and declares war (Holy war) against your people, the resources necessary to become a serious military threat?

    Until Palestine no longer seeks to regain the land it once possessed (and we can both assume this will never happen), the Palestinians shall have to content themselves with living in the shadow of Israel.
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    Also you should remember that Likud is the most right wing of parties currently running in Israel. Other more liberal parties are warmer to the idea of Palestinian independence.
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    (Original post by Elie Bergman)
    This is correct. Israel would be foolish to give the Palestinians sovereignty. Why would you give the nation which rejects your right of existence and declares war (Holy war) against your people, the resources necessary to become a serious military threat?

    Until Palestine no longer seeks to regain the land it once possessed (and we can both assume this will never happen), the Palestinians shall have to content themselves with living in the shadow of Israel.
    That Israeli propaganda must be blinding you.

    Israel will never accept a Palestinian State even if the Palestinians do everything that Israel wants them to do.
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    (Original post by Elie Bergman)
    Also you should remember that Likud is the most right wing of parties currently running in Israel. Other more liberal parties are warmer to the idea of Palestinian independence.
    No one gives a crap.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    No one gives a crap.
    You seem to.
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    (Original post by Elie Bergman)
    You seem to.
    You seem to not want to give the Palestinians a State. How can you deny others something that was offered to you?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    You seem to not want to give the Palestinians a State. How can you deny others something that was offered to you?
    I would certainly consider it the gravest of mistakes to create an independent Palestine now, when both sides are openly at war.

    Offered! Ha! Does the war of independence mean nothing to you, or was victory simply "offered" to the Jews? Why do you think in Israel conscription is mandatory? Because every man and women there knows that their very existence is dependant on military force. Words and Rhetoric mean nothing to the nozzle of an AK-47. If Israel wishes to persevere, it must fight, as it is, for its existence.

    In war, moral high ground is meaningless. It is the last resort when all other high ground is lost. Indeed, it is the lowest of high grounds.
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    (Original post by Elie Bergman)
    I would certainly consider it the gravest of mistakes to create an independent Palestine now, when both sides are openly at war.

    Offered! Ha! Does the war of independence mean nothing to you, or was victory simply "offered" to the Jews? Why do you think in Israel conscription is mandatory? Because every man and women there knows that their very existence is dependant on military force. Words and Rhetoric mean nothing to the nozzle of an AK-47. If Israel wishes to persevere, it must fight, as it is, for its existence.

    In war, moral high ground is meaningless. It is the last resort when all other high ground is lost. Indeed, it is the lowest of high grounds.
    Israel craves legitimacy from the Palestinian people.

    It can do this in two ways:

    a) Be a good guy or,
    b) Be a bad guy and oppress the people from who they want acceptance.


    It has clearly chosen the latter. It subjugates, oppresses and defeats the hope of the Palestinian people.

    Israel is a severely insecure state. It needs constant assurance that it is wanted and if the answer is negative, it just sends over a couple of bombs.

    It is like a tantrum throwing child, throwing her toys out of the pram when someone doesn't invite her to a birthday party or something. It is a vindictive, cruel, clingy and oppressive which seeks to exploit the history of it's own people as justification for their actions today in order to brainwash people like you.
 
 
 
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