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    [QUOTE=daal roti hummus;65347777]Hang on, what do you mean by "not being a *****y human being". I think Trump/Ted Cruz is, many (including many Christians) don't... Would Ted Cruz reach salvation even though he may or may not be a "*****y human being". Normally, religions (well, orthodox abrahamic ones) have some sort of book... are you saying we don't need these books and just not be "*****y human being", which is or isn't defined. If we go back to my meat-eating analogy (mentioned in a previous post), I would be a "*****y human being".

    It mean's love your neighbour.
    Don't murder, rape or abduct people.


    Other sin's which are harmless would be forgiven by God through salvation.
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    (Original post by Thanbir.33)
    are you an atheist
    yeh
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    (Original post by Bliss_)
    i'm sorry if you thought i was being arrogant but see i assumed that because the only reason anyone would leave islam would be either due to lack of knowledge or misunderstandings.. ik you are pobably annoyed that i keep arguing about your business but i really wanna know the exact reason why you left islam. Either it will give me an idea of where i am wrong in life or give me an oppurtunity to help you get rid of your misunderstadnings. ik someone who became an atheist after he started uni. later someone helped him clear out his misunderstandings and now he is a scholar. Oh and if you don't wanna talk about it just say it out loud. its fine if you wanna keep it personal. just tryna help in any way i can
    I left mainly because:

    1. Science can explain the natural world perfectly find with emperical data behind it. I dont see a need for a God.
    2. Morality within the Quran is sick. Dont agree with a lot of it.

    I've actually talked to imams and scholars about all my issues with Islam and I still have most of them. Read the Quran and many hadith with many different translations and that didnt help.
    Thanks for trying be I dont think i'll be reconverting anytime soon.
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    (Original post by daal roti hummus)
    Hang on, what do you mean by "not being a *****y human being". I think Trump/Ted Cruz is, many (including many Christians) don't... Would Ted Cruz reach salvation even though he may or may not be a "*****y human being". Normally, religions (well, orthodox abrahamic ones) have some sort of book... are you saying we don't need these books and just not be "*****y human being", which is or isn't defined. If we go back to my meat-eating analogy (mentioned in a previous post), I would be a "*****y human being".

    btw on a curious note, which author was it?

    I understand what these evidences are or could be. I'm just saying is the nature of these evidence reliable and not subject to confirmation bias?


    Well, the thing I was discussing was that the other poster's claim that Christianity and Islam are the same because they both believe in prophet Jesus... which isn't true.

    1. by ck Louis and ironically , it was talking about how we don't need religion to be good people and / reach mental salvation .
    2. Both religions DO believe in Jesus even-though we have different opinions on Jesus. An extra tidbit - Jesus never claimed to be the son of God directly ; secondly, a sect of Christianity(the large bulk in its start) did exist which did not believe that Jesus was not infallible and was not the son of god until they were destroyed by war with another sect.And if memory serves i think the other faction was led by st Paul(don't quote me on this).
    3. Furthermore, the values of the two religions are far more entrenched in other smaller sector an example being not to eat the flesh of a pig or even not to INDULGE your self in alchol which would impair your decisions.
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    (Original post by Sfhkh)
    It mean's love your neighbour.
    Don't murder, rape or abduct people.
    "Don't murder, rape or abduct people." that's it? that's all you need to get to heaven? No conditions?

    So if you've ever killed a person, you will not get salvation? for e.g. noone in the armed forces who has killed a person is going to heaven?

    all of this is besides the point of why anecdotal miracles can be considered evidence

    (Original post by Sfhkh)
    Other sin's which are harmless would be forgiven by God through salvation.
    Like what? adultery, homosexuality, perjury, lying, having other Gods (or no God) before God, blasphemy etc etc are okay?
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    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    Pff, I literally did not say that.
    The record speaks for itself:

    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    Afterall, the quran is a historic piece of writing that may have some errors. Either that or there's another explanation which I'll look up when I'm not revising about osmosis.
    You don't know that there is another explanation (if you did, you would've stated it); this is therefore exactly what I said: holding on to the view in the hope that when you have the time to look it up, an explanation vindicating your view will be found.

    It won't kill you to admit to having mis-phrased something.
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    (Original post by redleader1)
    Knowledge ? How much did you know ? Were you doing a part time course or something ?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    chat ****
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    (Original post by daal roti hummus)
    "Don't murder, rape or abduct people." that's it? that's all you need to get to heaven? No conditions?

    So if you've ever killed a person, you will not get salvation? for e.g. noone in the armed forces who has killed a person is going to heaven?

    all of this is besides the point of why anecdotal miracles can be considered evidence



    Like what? adultery, homosexuality, perjury, lying, having other Gods (or no God) before God, blasphemy etc etc are okay?
    No, Natural evil is fine but Moral evil is not.
    Moral evil is all the terrible acts you listed above.
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    (Original post by paragonofpie)
    1. by ck Louis and ironically , it was talking about how we don't need religion to be good people and / reach mental salvation .
    2. Both religions DO believe in Jesus even-though we have different opinions on Jesus. An extra tidbit - Jesus never claimed to be the son of God directly ; secondly, a sect of Christianity(the large bulk in its start) did exist which did not believe that Jesus was not infallible and was not the son of god until they were destroyed by war with another sect.And if memory serves i think the other faction was led by st Paul(don't quote me on this).
    3. Furthermore, the values of the two religions are far more entrenched in other smaller sector an example being not to eat the flesh of a pig or even not to INDULGE your self in alchol which would impair your decisions.
    1. Thanks, I'll check it out

    2.3. fascinating. But maybe this also proves by initial point, that there nothing concrete about religion in the first place?
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    (Original post by hilrho)
    It's very interesting you say that because every ex-muslim I know are actually people who once used to be extremely religious but attributes their loss of belief for knowing "too much" as you put it.

    Actually I am very close to them and like she still puts a scarf over her head whenever she hears the call to prayer for some reason which is kind of funny - do you still do things like that out of habit or something?

    Also if you don't mind my asking what was your interpretation of the Quran like? What were your take on what the Qurans stance for homosexuality, apostasy, gender equality, views on non-muslims like back when you were a muslim? (Not to debate you but curious)

    And yeah I too think people should respect others belief, or lack thereof, and I do thinks its annoying whenever a ex muslim says oh I'm an ex muslim and people try and reconcile them with religion again. I do think it's okay to be curious and ask them why they left, however it's not to try and shove it back down their throat.

    (I'm from a judea-christian background myself although raised by a single atheist mother but converted to Islam like 2-3 months ago). So it's nice to see the other side of things.

    Likewise, most ex mulims including myself were very religious.

    I think the scarf thing is more an appearance thing, women wear the scarf when praying so its something they have to do. If she didnt, her parents or whoever would have a big issue with it.

    Honestly it changed, I went from being pretty radical to becoming more liberal as I got older. Funny story - I'm Bi. Back in my religious days I would pray constantly and literally beg to be fixed. Taking to imams the common belief is that being gay/bi is acceptable if you dont act on your desires (pretty terrible if you ask me) but yeh. I was going to get married to a women at like 18ish, thats how strong my deen was. I was happy being pretty unhappy as long as I was following Islam.
    ^Before anyone asks, me being Bi didnt have an impact on me leaving Islam.

    I was pretty religious so I believed in the Quran for what it was and what it said. Regardless of how immoral it may have been. Once I really started thinking about my beliefs is where I started becoming more Liberal and accepting.

    Yup I agree, No problem with muslims asking me why I left etc.
    I do have an issue when muslims imply I wasnt knowledgeable enough - that is just a sense of arrogance.

    Thanks for you reply
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    (Original post by daal roti hummus)
    "Don't murder, rape or abduct people." that's it? that's all you need to get to heaven? No conditions?

    So if you've ever killed a person, you will not get salvation? for e.g. noone in the armed forces who has killed a person is going to heaven?

    all of this is besides the point of why anecdotal miracles can be considered evidence



    Like what? adultery, homosexuality, perjury, lying, having other Gods (or no God) before God, blasphemy etc etc are okay?
    Being a homosexual isn't a sin. That's a fact. - catechism
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    (Original post by Sfhkh)
    No, Natural evil is fine but Moral evil is not.
    Moral evil is all the terrible acts you listed above.
    and then, is moral evil defined from the Bible?

    EDIT:
    (Original post by Sfhkh)
    Being a homosexual isn't a sin. That's a fact. - catechism
    So I assume you don't think that moral evil is defined from the Bible (unless you have your own interpretation?)

    Although you haven't really answered my initial question
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    (Original post by Cobalt_)
    I left mainly because:

    2. Morality within the Quran is sick. Dont agree with a lot of it.
    Do elaborate my child you have made me quite inquisitive.
    Secondly, pertaining to your first point, many religious people might agree with scientific evidence i.e that the big bang is the "how" while God is the "how". Secondly, even-though science can explain some things , it is not whole or concrete. An example being where did the first life form simply come from? Or even more abstract ideas about what is the purpose of existence? If i had summarize in one sentence , i would have to say : that religion ad science are not oxymoron's but are two parts too a whole truth.

    Lastly, even-though i wish i could convert you or etc etc , i have to say that im just not bothered .
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    (Original post by daal roti hummus)
    "Don't murder, rape or abduct people." that's it? that's all you need to get to heaven? No conditions?

    So if you've ever killed a person, you will not get salvation? for e.g. noone in the armed forces who has killed a person is going to heaven?

    all of this is besides the point of why anecdotal miracles can be considered evidence



    Like what? adultery, homosexuality, perjury, lying, having other Gods (or no God) before God, blasphemy etc etc are okay?
    He is obviously going for a much larger definition of morality and you are either to stupid to realize it or a purposefully constructing a strawman.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    You mean like you respected theirs? By taking the piss out of it? Lmao, double standards or what.
    With an imaginary friend joke?
    Really.

    If that offended you i'm sorry but making a simple joke like that imo is fine. Joke about atheism and I doubt many people would have an issue with it. It really isnt that serious.

    Read the other reply I gave to Z33, respect was definitely the wrong word to use there.

    I admit to my mistake.
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    (Original post by z33)
    o...



    k...

    hypocrisy > 9000

    Respect may have been a bad word to use however.
    I dont care if someone insults my atheism, go for it all day. It'll actually be funny to me, "something out of nothing", "you guys have no morals" blah blah.

    The point I was trying to get across is: Everyone assumes anyone who leaves Islam is a minion of the bloody anti christ. That the Shaytaan influenced us that much, we're blind to the real truth in Islam. If someone has left Islam you should leave them, not try to hold your arrogance above them.

    Bad choice of wording I know.
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    (Original post by daal roti hummus)
    and then, is moral evil defined from the Bible?

    EDIT:

    So I assume you don't think that moral evil is defined from the Bible (unless you have your own interpretation?)

    Although you haven't really answered my initial question
    I'm not a catholic, according to this its quite controversial

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=123010

    "There is a 'exception' when you join the military. It's not always a sin to kill if you are in the military."
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    (Original post by daal roti hummus)
    1. Thanks, I'll check it out

    2.3. fascinating. But maybe this also proves by initial point, that there nothing concrete about religion in the first place?
    actually quite the opposite religions are quit concrete and have boundaries .However, all these boundaries are shared by many other religions which would go against the original point that religions are contradictory.
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    What do you guys not understand about free will. GOD WILL NOT INTERVENE DIRECTLY UNLESS NEEDED BECAUSE THAT IS THE REASON WE ARE MADE. You guys seek the ultimate religion and that will not happen and when i say that i mean a religion with a manual on how to reach eternal peace. ISLAM IS A ROAD TO PEACE AND YOU EITHER TAKE THE ROAD OR NOT . Its not like a teleportation machine where you become muslim and prefection hits you. Islam basically ,in a nutshell as you say, all religion before where true but got changed. Here is a quran it will never get changed with its guidance live your life for God. Now people will critize islam for many 'cruel' aspects like what killing the non believers in war? sorry so the Muslim man fighting in war shall just stand there and get slaughtered?

    With free will comes good and bad and that does not collide with religion , religion guides to the good but evil will always be there because people try add it. If you guys wanted eternal peace in a world without conflict then you will have no free will . Islam trys its best to guide people but they always try criticise it as it will cause them to make huge decisions . You guys can argue for decades and no answer will be met, why? you tell me why?
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    (Original post by Cobalt_)
    Likewise, most ex mulims including myself were very religious.
    how do you know this a fact or statistic have you done a lengthy study?
    (Original post by Cobalt_)
    I think the scarf thing is more an appearance thing, women wear the scarf when praying so its something they have to do. If she didn't, her parents or whoever would have a big issue with it.
    It's not about parents is about morality it show's even-though you claim to be "extremely" religious and you might have been , your actual knowledge and critical thinking is severely underdeveloped.Both MEN and WOMEN have to cover themselves albeit men to a lesser extent but that's because of biological differences and women in front of women can cover a LOT less.

    (Original post by Cobalt_)
    Honestly it changed, I went from being pretty radical to becoming more liberal as I got older. Funny story - I'm Bi. Back in my religious days I would pray constantly and literally beg to be fixed. Taking to imams the common belief is that being gay/bi is acceptable if you dont act on your desires (pretty terrible if you ask me) but yeh. I was going to get married to a women at like 18ish, thats how strong my deen was. I was happy being pretty unhappy as long as I was following Islam.
    ^Before anyone asks, me being Bi didnt have an impact on me leaving Islam.
    Thanks for you reply
    Thats quite hypocritical as you never would have had to mention the fact you were bisexual unless it was of some worth to your departure from Islam.
 
 
 
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