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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Why is STEM important to someone who has no interest in it?
    It pays for your life style. If there were no STEM in the world, you would not be writing on this website in the first place and would still be digging in the ground for food and dying at 30.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    It pays for your life style. If there were no STEM in the world, you would not be writing on this website in the first place and would still be digging in the ground for food and dying at 30.
    A STEM degree doesn't necessarily lead to insane income levels or wealth.

    It does however (where there is innovation, which in itself is rare as most STEM research doesn't lead anywhere) create new platforms, technologies, biochemical structures etc. Of course, STEM as a discipline is important but studying it does not necessarily lead to riches or innovation; that part is entirely down to the individual, luck and the right situation.



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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    A STEM degree doesn't necessarily lead to insane income levels or wealth.

    It does however (where there is innovation, which in itself is rare as most STEM research doesn't lead anywhere) create new platforms, technologies, biochemical structures etc. Of course, STEM as a discipline is important but studying it does not necessarily lead to riches or innovation; that part is entirely down to the individual, luck and the right situation.



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    Have you tried to cure cancer with English Lit?
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    Non-STEM courses are always associated by those who believe STEM is better by the fact that all non-STEM courses are considered easy like Media Studies. Lots of non-STEM courses, like History and Law, produce the most intelligent and (in the case of Law) often very high earners.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    It pays for your life style. If there were no STEM in the world, you would not be writing on this website in the first place and would still be digging in the ground for food and dying at 30.
    Both are equally important. Without non stem, how would you be able to formulate these sentences you're typing right now? there would be no creativity in the world, there would be no music, no art. Most importantly, there would be a lack of communication. We would be alive yes, but would life be worth living?
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    (Original post by STEMisSuperior.)
    This forum has been quick to dismiss people who claim that STEM and non-STEM subjects are on the same level. Well let me break it to people who study non-STEM subjects; STEM is superior in every aspect.
    Here's why:
    - STEM grads earn way more money than non STEM grads(ST and LT)
    - STEM students have better grades than non STEM students (on average)
    - STEM grads have greater career prospects than non STEM grads
    - STEM grads are more intelligent since their degrees need more thinking ability.
    - In the future, STEM grads will be more in demand since computers and AI can easily replace the jobs of a non STEM grad.
    - Careers such as high finance actually have a preference of STEM (and econ/finance) over other non STEM grads. Why? Because STEM grads have a more respectable degree.
    - STEM grads can do the job a non STEM grad does (perhaps with a little bit of training)
    - Many non STEM degrees such as languages can be done by STEM students so long as they choose the appropriate modules at uni.

    Lets be honest, the people who say "STEM and non STEM degrees are equal!" are those who do non STEM degrees or A levels and are very insecure. This has now led to STEM students and non STEM students degrees look equal, which is an insult to STEM students. A maths grad and english grad are not equal, sorry.

    (Economics/Finance are also basically STEM since they have a lot of maths in their degrees)
    While I dont think stem and non stem are equal I just think they are different

    1. This is true but only really because of the engineers and comp sci people, science and maths dont always have high salaries
    2. stem get better grades not because they are smarter but because it is easier to identify the top students because there are only right and wrong answers where as essay based subjects are objective
    3. Prospects are better on the whole for stem, cant really argue with that
    4. How do you define intelligence though? Essay based subjects develop a lot of analysis skills which are very useless, hence why a fair few history majors etc go into finance
    5. Again depends on the job, stem can be replaced in certain areas too
    6. Again not true, plenty of humanities (though less than stem) go into finance, you will find in fact that a fair few hedge fund managers have non stem degrees
    7. Can be said both ways
    8. Somewhat true but it cant be learnt in anywhere near as much depth


    A lot of your points are subjective and while the 2 areas are not equal they are just different and not necessarily worse than each other, yes pay tends to be lower for non stem but this can sometimes be related to choosing a lower paying more enjoyable career

    There is also a lot of variation in prospects and difficulty of degree within stem itself (example engineering have better career prospects money wise than people doing physics degrees, but having seen what chemical engineers study I can say that the content I cover is much harder than a chemical engineering students year on year, for the first 2 years anyway havent seen past that yet)
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Have you tried to cure cancer with English Lit?
    Has it ever occurred to you that some people may have a genuine interest in something like English lit? There's no reason why one cannot succeed with that degree. Not everyone can be engineers/doctors. We need a variety of everything.

    What would you say if your child wanted to study English at uni?
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    (Original post by STEMisSuperior.)
    Common sense.

    Also it isnt difficult to quantify difficulty, you look at things like drop out rates.
    This isn't objective at all if you're reliant on drop out rates...
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Both are equally important. Without non stem, how would you be able to formulate these sentences you're typing right now? there would be no creativity in the world, there would be no music, no art. Most importantly, there would be a lack of communication. We would be alive yes, but would life be worth living?
    There is plenty of creativity in the world. Loads of people who never went to university made great strides in literature and the arts. Shakespeare never went to university, neither did the Bronte sisters, Jane Austen never went since women weren't allowed to go to university anyway when she was alive. Leonardo Di Vinci never went despite making great leaps in technology, medicine and the visual arts.

    I never did English at university yet, I am able to write these sentences.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Has it ever occurred to you that some people may have a genuine interest in something like English lit? There's no reason why one cannot succeed with that degree. Not everyone can be engineers/doctors. We need a variety of everything.

    What would you say if your child wanted to study English at uni?
    My children will do what they want.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    There is plenty of creativity in the world. Loads of people who never went to university made great strides in literature and the arts. Shakespeare never went to university, neither did the Bronte sisters, Jane Austen never went since women weren't allowed to go to university anyway when she was alive. Leonardo Di Vinci never went despite making great leaps in technology, medicine and the visual arts.

    I never did English at university yet, I am able to write these sentences.
    You did English at school though, so did those people you've mentioned. You were taught by people who graduated in secondary education.

    There is plenty of creativity in the world right now because of non stem subjects. If people only graduated in stem, we wouldn't have it.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    My children will do what they want.
    So then why are we not free to do what we want without being criticised and belittled by the stem police? What if your child wanted to study non stem and saw your comments on this thread? You think they'd feel comfortable talking to you about it?
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    (Original post by STEMisSuperior.)
    This forum has been quick to dismiss people who claim that STEM and non-STEM subjects are on the same level. Well let me break it to people who study non-STEM subjects; STEM is superior in every aspect.
    Here's why:
    - STEM grads earn way more money than non STEM grads(ST and LT)
    - STEM students have better grades than non STEM students (on average)
    - STEM grads have greater career prospects than non STEM grads
    - STEM grads are more intelligent since their degrees need more thinking ability.
    - In the future, STEM grads will be more in demand since computers and AI can easily replace the jobs of a non STEM grad.
    - Careers such as high finance actually have a preference of STEM (and econ/finance) over other non STEM grads. Why? Because STEM grads have a more respectable degree.
    - STEM grads can do the job a non STEM grad does (perhaps with a little bit of training)
    - Many non STEM degrees such as languages can be done by STEM students so long as they choose the appropriate modules at uni.

    Lets be honest, the people who say "STEM and non STEM degrees are equal!" are those who do non STEM degrees or A levels and are very insecure. This has now led to STEM students and non STEM students degrees look equal, which is an insult to STEM students. A maths grad and english grad are not equal, sorry.

    (Economics/Finance are also basically STEM since they have a lot of maths in their degrees)
    The best things, I have come to understand, are a combination of disciplines.

    Maths and art - Architecture
    Technology and art - Design
    Maths and History - A better blue print for the future - learning from our past mistakes.

    The list I could create is huge. I think it is rather insular and dare I say conceited to believe that STEM subjects are superior.

    We need fusion in our disciplines to create the most brilliant things humanity has to offer.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    Have you tried to cure cancer with English Lit?
    Does every bioscience related student try to cure cancer? Or should I say can every bioscience related student even attempt to do it? Probably not.
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    (Original post by madmadmax321)
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    +1, you know what you're talking about dude
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    You did English at school though, so did those people you've mentioned. You were taught by people who graduated in secondary education.

    There is plenty of creativity in the world right now because of non stem subjects. If people only graduated in stem, we wouldn't have it.
    Why do you think studying stem would not make someone creative? Lots of creative people have studied stem like Arthur C Clarke and Arthur Conan Doyle.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Does every bioscience related student try to cure cancer? Or should I say can every bioscience related student even attempt to do it? Probably not.
    Why don't you ask a cancer patient what they think is more important to them?
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    So then why are we not free to do what we want without being criticised and belittled by the stem police? What if your child wanted to study non stem and saw your comments on this thread? You think they'd feel comfortable talking to you about it?
    My daughter has already told me she has no interest in science, I'm cool with that.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    +1, you know what you're talking about dude
    Theres so much more I could of said but it would of taken forever it read haha just really annoys me when people say non stem is awful and stem is the best, especially as there is so much variation within stem subjects themselves in terms f everything the op mentioned in relation to non stem

    I have no interest in non stem (or really non science) fields but I can still appreciate why people choose to do them and the skill sets they develop, I never understand how some people like the op are so closed minded about the topic and especially when they jump to the argument no maths = your degree is easy because I am good at maths but I certainly could never do a essay based subject
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    When are you going to respond to the fact that superiority is necessarily subjective?


    (Original post by STEMisSuperior.)
    I've considered all criteria.
    As I've repeatedly said, you haven't demonstrated that you've considered all criteria. Why should I believe you? The onus is on you.


    You can't even name one that i havent considered.
    How about the one I just mentioned in my last post: is STEM better at training students for research? How about whether STEM is better at preparing students for careers in journalism? Media? HR? Is STEM better at developing writing skills? Do STEM students enjoy greater life satisfaction? Do they find their degrees and/or careers more enjoyable and/or fulfilling?


    Your point about my evidence, yeah you havent even looked at the,.
    I don't know what you're referring to and I'm not sure what you're saying I haven't looked at.


    And the last bit, i have already replied to perviously, silly argument really.
    To my knowledge you haven't done so in our conversation. I don't intend to read through every single post you've ever made on the off chance that something you posted is relevant to what I'm talking to you about now!


    Now im going to ignore you until you give me a criteria that i havent yet considered.
    How irrational. That is only of the slightest relevance to my overarching argument. Either way, I've now done so.


    I have been objective, since ive looked at ALL possible criteria.
    That isn't what objective means. And no, you haven't. See above.


    As i have considered ALL objectively measurably criteria, this is objective.
    Do you actually know what 'objective' means? It doesn't mean that either.


    You got an issue, the burden is on YOU to suggest any criteria that can be objectively measured and suggests non STEM is better.
    That's not how logic works.


    You sound like a butthurt non STEM person who is really making a massive fuss right now.
    You'd be surprised. What's your STEM experience? And what's your non-STEM experience?

    I suspect an impartial observer would disagree with you strongly about which of us seems the most butthurt.


    I've repeated the same points again and again and you just ignore me repeatedly.
    You have completely failed to engage with my primary point that superiority is subjective by definition. How you have the audacity to say I'm ignoring you repeatedly is beyond me, when I've responded to every single individual point you have made in our discussion and you've straight up ignored entire paragraphs of what I've posted.


    (Original post by STEMisSuperior.)
    Prove to me that i havent. My standpoint is i have so the burden is wholly on you to disprove that.
    You make a claim, you demonstrate it. Otherwise I could make all sorts of ridiculous, unfalsifiable claims and demand that you disprove me. You wouldn't be able to (by the definition of an unfalsifiable claim), but that wouldn't make what I say any less dumb.

    If you assert something, the onus is on you to demonstrate that it is true.


    Note that you will also need to provide stats that suggest non STEM is better in a certain aspect. (You cant, btw)
    Why will I need to do that? As I've repeatedly stated (and you've repeatedly ignored), my entire point is that your premise is flawed. I'm not advocating the opposing view (that non-STEM is better); I'm telling you that the entire argument is ridiculous because superiority is not objective.
 
 
 
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