The Commons Bar Mk XIII - MHoC Chat Thread

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Four things that unis think matter more than league tables 08-12-2016
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)


    It is done.
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Anyone want to convince me to vote for Mr Smith or Mr Corbyn? I haven't voted yet.
    I'm waiting for my postal vote, so I can spoil my ballot paper.
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    (Original post by EricAteYou)
    I'm waiting for my postal vote, so I can spoil my ballot paper.
    Is smithy not your cup of tea?
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    (Original post by cBay)
    Is smithy not your cup of tea?
    Better than Corbyn, but still not the apple of my eye.
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    As TSR Labour activists infiltrate academic institutions across the country we'll soon amass our strength to the point where we're able to take over the RL Labour Party.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Anyone want to convince me to vote for Mr Smith or Mr Corbyn? I haven't voted yet.
    *long-winded post alert*

    For me, the whole decision comes down to two different priorities of the Labour movement. The vast majority of our present members want to achieve two things. In the short term, they want to kick the Tories out of Government, and replace them with an alternative that is more compassionate, redistributive and in-touch with ordinary people - even if that alternative is not particularly radical or going to cause fundamental change in society. In the long term, they want to heavily reform or replace capitalism with a modern-day socialism, perhaps without such heavy reliance on traditional state structures, moving towards a system of economic democracy where workers have influence or control over their businesses and economic decisions are made in the common interest whether they're run by the government or not. Now, a few only believe in one of the two: some relative centrists who want a Labour Government but not such drastic long-term change, or hardcore socialists who would view Brown or Miliband governments as little or not better than the Tories and only care for the total replacement of the capitalist system - but they are a minority. I expect that you, like most, fall into the camp of wanting both - as do I.

    Unfortunately, we've been presented as a binary choice between one and the other. Smith may make left-leaning statements and come out with such policies, but he has shown no inclination for radicalism before it became convienient. Corbyn, meanwhile, demonstrates no interest in governing, and you get the impression that if we failed in 2020 but his legacy lived on in the party and we eventually rose to government as a far-left party in 2030 or 2035 he would see it as an absolute, unmitigated success. Therefore, I believe the decision comes down to three questions:

    1) Can Smith complete his stated goal, I.E. lead the party to victory at the next general election?
    2) Can Corbyn complete his, I.E. permanently change the party to a fully socialist one, fend off challenges to our second-party status from UKIP and elsewhere, and see such a party eventually rise to power?
    3) If "Yes" or "No" to both - which is your priority?

    For me, the answer to 1) and 2) is in both cases Yes, although not without an uphill task either way. But personally, my view is that Corbyn's year in power has already permanently changed the party: the new members will elect left-wingers to the NEC, push for re-selections where necessary, and maintain the course of the party in that general direction. The key will be the support of Corbyn and Momentum for the party under Smith's leadership, which I believe would happen. Smith for me is the best chance of having our cake and eating it: an ideologically sound party, which isn't lead by a total incompetent with ridiculous foreign policy who's more likely to win I'm a Celebrity than a General Election. But there's a lot at stake either way, and I totally respect those who look at the facts and reach a different conclusion
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    As TSR Labour activists infiltrate academic institutions across the country we'll soon amass our strength to the point where we're able to take over the RL Labour Party.
    :lol: I'm sure one day RL labour will have a former TSR PM!

    What uni are you going to this year?
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    *long-winded post alert*

    For me, the whole decision comes down to two different priorities of the Labour movement. The vast majority of our present members want to achieve two things. In the short term, they want to kick the Tories out of Government, and replace them with an alternative that is more compassionate, redistributive and in-touch with ordinary people - even if that alternative is not particularly radical or going to cause fundamental change in society. In the long term, they want to heavily reform or replace capitalism with a modern-day socialism, perhaps without such heavy reliance on traditional state structures, moving towards a system of economic democracy where workers have influence or control over their businesses and economic decisions are made in the common interest whether they're run by the government or not. Now, a few only believe in one of the two: some relative centrists who want a Labour Government but not such drastic long-term change, or hardcore socialists who would view Brown or Miliband governments as little or not better than the Tories and only care for the total replacement of the capitalist system - but they are a minority. I expect that you, like most, fall into the camp of wanting both - as do I.

    Unfortunately, we've been presented as a binary choice between one and the other. Smith may make left-leaning statements and come out with such policies, but he has shown no inclination for radicalism before it became convienient. Corbyn, meanwhile, demonstrates no interest in governing, and you get the impression that if we failed in 2020 but his legacy lived on in the party and we eventually rose to government as a far-left party in 2030 or 2035 he would see it as an absolute, unmitigated success. Therefore, I believe the decision comes down to three questions:

    1) Can Smith complete his stated goal, I.E. lead the party to victory at the next general election?
    2) Can Corbyn complete his, I.E. permanently change the party to a fully socialist one, fend off challenges to our second-party status from UKIP and elsewhere, and see such a party eventually rise to power?
    3) If "Yes" or "No" to both - which is your priority?

    For me, the answer to 1) and 2) is in both cases Yes, although not without an uphill task either way. But personally, my view is that Corbyn's year in power has already permanently changed the party: the new members will elect left-wingers to the NEC, push for re-selections where necessary, and maintain the course of the party in that general direction. The key will be the support of Corbyn and Momentum for the party under Smith's leadership, which I believe would happen. Smith for me is the best chance of having our cake and eating it: an ideologically sound party, which isn't lead by a total incompetent with ridiculous foreign policy who's more likely to win I'm a Celebrity than a General Election. But there's a lot at stake either way, and I totally respect those who look at the facts and reach a different conclusion
    Economic reform will eventually become involuntary anyway, what matters is how the ordinary voter will benefit from a government in the foreseeable future. This is what Corbynites don't understand. When the average Joe goes out and places his/her vote, they aren't doing it to fundamentally reform society, they are actually just choosing the option they feel will benefit them the most.

    So what do people most want? That's what labour have to reach out to.

    People are worried about jobs, the economy, schools, the NHS, transport and housing. Its because they're worried about these things that they're also worried about immigration also.

    What Labour needs is a candidate who's above identity politics and will propose a plan over the next 5 to 10 years that will settle the worries people have over the aforementioned. Labour's issue is that they don't really have anyone good enough to make that case.

    Most people are perfectly contented with the current economic system because it works well for them. Capitalism has its flaws, but people would rather vote for a party that will seek to smooth over the rough patches than vote for a party that will throw it out the window because of a naive, ideological belief that the world owes them something.

    Neither Owen or Jez will win in 2020 and Labour probably won't win in 2025 either unless they get over their identity crisis and start reaching out to the electorate.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    F
    G
    Apologies for that

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    *long-winded post alert*

    For me, the whole decision comes down to two different priorities of the Labour movement. The vast majority of our present members want to achieve two things. In the short term, they want to kick the Tories out of Government, and replace them with an alternative that is more compassionate, redistributive and in-touch with ordinary people - even if that alternative is not particularly radical or going to cause fundamental change in society. In the long term, they want to heavily reform or replace capitalism with a modern-day socialism, perhaps without such heavy reliance on traditional state structures, moving towards a system of economic democracy where workers have influence or control over their businesses and economic decisions are made in the common interest whether they're run by the government or not. Now, a few only believe in one of the two: some relative centrists who want a Labour Government but not such drastic long-term change, or hardcore socialists who would view Brown or Miliband governments as little or not better than the Tories and only care for the total replacement of the capitalist system - but they are a minority. I expect that you, like most, fall into the camp of wanting both - as do I.

    Unfortunately, we've been presented as a binary choice between one and the other. Smith may make left-leaning statements and come out with such policies, but he has shown no inclination for radicalism before it became convienient. Corbyn, meanwhile, demonstrates no interest in governing, and you get the impression that if we failed in 2020 but his legacy lived on in the party and we eventually rose to government as a far-left party in 2030 or 2035 he would see it as an absolute, unmitigated success. Therefore, I believe the decision comes down to three questions:

    1) Can Smith complete his stated goal, I.E. lead the party to victory at the next general election?
    2) Can Corbyn complete his, I.E. permanently change the party to a fully socialist one, fend off challenges to our second-party status from UKIP and elsewhere, and see such a party eventually rise to power?
    3) If "Yes" or "No" to both - which is your priority?

    For me, the answer to 1) and 2) is in both cases Yes, although not without an uphill task either way. But personally, my view is that Corbyn's year in power has already permanently changed the party: the new members will elect left-wingers to the NEC, push for re-selections where necessary, and maintain the course of the party in that general direction. The key will be the support of Corbyn and Momentum for the party under Smith's leadership, which I believe would happen. Smith for me is the best chance of having our cake and eating it: an ideologically sound party, which isn't lead by a total incompetent with ridiculous foreign policy who's more likely to win I'm a Celebrity than a General Election. But there's a lot at stake either way, and I totally respect those who look at the facts and reach a different conclusion
    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrggggggg ghhhhhhhhhh
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    (Original post by Aph)
    :lol: I'm sure one day RL labour will have a former TSR PM!

    What uni are you going to this year?
    Oxford.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Oxford.
    Ahhh the better half of Oxbridge.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Ahhh the better half of Oxbridge.
    And let Fez never forget it.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Ahhh the better half of Oxbridge.
    This deserves six reps
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    In other news, Leicester City have a moderately easy Champions League group. This could mean they make the knockout stage.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    In other news, Leicester City have a moderately easy Champions League group. This could mean they make the knockout stage.
    And Tottenham get a ridiculously easy one for a Pot 3 side. Great draw for England getting the two less experience UCL teams into simplish groups.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    This deserves six reps
    I'll give him one then, why not.
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    Has anyone been watching "Britain's Hardest workers" on BBC2
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    Not often I'm opposed to an EU move, but this is a ****ing terrible idea:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e3d652da-6...d%2F%2Fproduct
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Not often I'm opposed to an EU move, but this is a ****ing terrible idea:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e3d652da-6...d%2F%2Fproduct
    You have to subscribe to see the article.

    I blame the EU.
 
 
 
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