Should women earn as much as men? Watch

harty2112
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
Ok, i have just read an article detaling how and where women earn less than men. It was stating how women earned less in full time and part time work.

I find it odd that people believe one group should earn as much as another group just because its 'not fair'. I think it is clear to all logical minds that men pursue education that will lead to more profitable careers, they are willing to work in dangerous environments, they will work more hours, travel further and they will not be taking 9 months off everytime they feel broody.

In my mind if men are more profitable to company's then they have every right to earn more money and we should abandon the ridiculous notion that women should earn as much as men just because its 'fair'.

I have never heard of people arguing in favour of certain ethnic groups getting paid more, even though there is a clear distinction between the salary's of certain ethnic groups.

I think it is clear that when you address the issue of ineqaulity in the salary of men and women, you should be careful to note if infact men are earning more simply because they are doing more rather than a case of any form of discrimination against women.

If it is the case that men are doing more (Something i consider to be obvious) then surely it is discrimination to pay women the same for doing less.

It reminds me of Wimbledon, there were many campaigners complaining that the women get paid less and so they increased the womens prize so it was equal to the men's prize. However the men play 5 sets, 2 more than the women and so women in Wimbledon are getting paid more than the men. Wimbledon is a good analogy for the workplace in this sense.

Discuss.
I think this has to be one of the most offensive and ridiculous articles I have read in a very long time. This is something that belongs in a "moaning" section in The Sun. What gives you the right to assume that women don't work as hard as men. I myself am an extremely hard working female and I know a great deal of other women who work very hard as well, one of them being my mother. Your opinion disgusts me, we live in a multicultural society and people should be paid equally no matter what gender or race they belong to. You are following a very narrow path if you continue to live with this mindset, I advise you re-evaluate your opinion.
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WithFlyingColours
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Your opinion disgusts me, we live in a multicultural society and people should be paid equally no matter what gender or race they belong to.
Leaving your personal attachments out of it, why should women and men get paid the same if the jobs they do and they hours they do can never be perfectly matched? There's always going to be a difference. Remember we are talking about as a whole country.
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Bornstubborn
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(Original post by GemmyMonster)
I have to admit, SOME female teachers can be weak. The ones who get upset and cry.

However, some of the best teachers in my school were females - for males too. They could be hard enough on punishment. And one was in control of everyone, but never gave out punishment - it was weird, everyone just behaved for her, and she's only in her 20s.

But, I've had some pretty ****e male teachers.




But men are not necessarily smarter than women! That's just stupid and pretty bloody sexist. Men MAY be better at, or may prefer doing science-based subjects in general, but that doesn't make them smarter.
There are some good female teachers but a situation where the majority of teachers are female does hurt boys education.

Although men are not necasarily smarter than women the smartest people in the world are almost always men. Just look at science and engineering. All the greatest inventions, the great discoveries, the intellectual elite, they are mainly men. They said women did not create great inventions or have any break throughs in science because women were held down, but in this era where women are most certainly not held down in education we have yet to see any great inventions or great breakthroughs by women.
So i would say men are smarter than women.

Withflyingcolours: BAE systems wont employ a civil engineer.
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WithFlyingColours
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The smartest people are men, however the most stupid people are also men. The range of intelligence of men is greater than the range for women.

Withflyingcolours: BAE systems wont employ a civil engineer.
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That seems fair enough, civil engineers don't have much to do with their business.
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Bornstubborn
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I agree it does appear the range of intelligence is greater for men. Some men are very stupid and some incredibly intelligent, whereas women tend to be more average. Perhaps it serves some sort of biological function.

Euler: why did you give me such an odd negative rep? You do realise you contradict yourself in it? You're an odd person. By the way you have a neatral neg rep, that means it wont effect my reputation, sorry
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Carlo08
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In normal jobs i think they should yea as long as they do the same work....

In Sport comps such as wimbledon i dont think they should as the women do fewer sets due to them getting tired by doing longer games... I know this is down to genetics etc... Men have more muscle, better lungs ..etc.. but since they are doing less work than the men why should they get the same?
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Lychee
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They said women did not create great inventions or have any break throughs in science because women were held down, but in this era where women are most certainly not held down in education we have yet to see any great inventions or great breakthroughs by women.
But might that not be because women are still held down- by the sort of attitudes expressed in this thread?

On that note what effect do you think these assumptions that men make about women have on women's earning potential. If you believe that men work harder than women, or that a manly style in certain areas is better then you will carry these assumptions into the workplace. You will then judge your employees on this basis and consequently your prejudices will colour the way you treat your staff.

I'm gonna throw the apprentice in as an example. This is just a possible interpretation of events and I am not saying that these were really Sir Alan's motivations but it is the kindof area where you can see this sort of discrimination. Ok so heer goes:

SAS obviously only respects the sort of people who are hard nosed, confrontational etc. Most people would agree that these skills are more 'male' than 'female' He has no respect for people who have softer approaches to the workplace or the valid skills that these people bring. Consequently he fires all the soft skilled people first (Not just women but also people like Ralph) He keeps the hard nosed business men, the people like him. However he then seems to find that he cant respect women who act like that either. He finds them bolshy and unladylike, he cant see himself getting on with a woman like that, even though he would respect these qualities in a man. Therefore he chooses the man for the job despite his lowere experience, qualifications and dubious morality.

All this happens in an entirely subconscious way in the minds of the people in charge of hiring and promotion but it does contribute to the wage gap.
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SarahhhD
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Thats like saying "Just because He's polish he shouldn't be payed as much as me" Which is Racism, and the statement is wrong if they are doing the same job as you.
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Bornstubborn
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(Original post by Lychee)
But might that not be because women are still held down- by the sort of attitudes expressed in this thread?

On that note what effect do you think these assumptions that men make about women have on women's earning potential. If you believe that men work harder than women, or that a manly style in certain areas is better then you will carry these assumptions into the workplace. You will then judge your employees on this basis and consequently your prejudices will colour the way you treat your staff.

I'm gonna throw the apprentice in as an example. This is just a possible interpretation of events and I am not saying that these were really Sir Alan's motivations but it is the kindof area where you can see this sort of discrimination. Ok so heer goes:

SAS obviously only respects the sort of people who are hard nosed, confrontational etc. Most people would agree that these skills are more 'male' than 'female' He has no respect for people who have softer approaches to the workplace or the valid skills that these people bring. Consequently he fires all the soft skilled people first (Not just women but also people like Ralph) He keeps the hard nosed business men, the people like him. However he then seems to find that he cant respect women who act like that either. He finds them bolshy and unladylike, he cant see himself getting on with a woman like that, even though he would respect these qualities in a man. Therefore he chooses the man for the job despite his lowere experience, qualifications and dubious morality.

All this happens in an entirely subconscious way in the minds of the people in charge of hiring and promotion but it does contribute to the wage gap.
Give me a break most of the top research is done within universities and as the ladies in this thread seem to believe women do much better in education throughout their lives. So that means women have every chance to make scientific research and breakthroughs.
Yet they haven't! What is the explanation for this result?

Business is business it doesn't care if you're black white, female, have an extra leg or arm, if you make money and are succesful you will be hired. Men tend to have the natural sociology for these sought of jobs and sometimes women do well.

Also who are you to say what is dubious morality and what is not. If anything a little dubious morality would be ideal for a business man.
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Cognito
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
There are some good female teachers but a situation where the majority of teachers are female does hurt boys education.

Although men are not necasarily smarter than women the smartest people in the world are almost always men. Just look at science and engineering. All the greatest inventions, the great discoveries, the intellectual elite, they are mainly men. They said women did not create great inventions or have any break throughs in science because women were held down, but in this era where women are most certainly not held down in education we have yet to see any great inventions or great breakthroughs by women.
So i would say men are smarter than women.

Withflyingcolours: BAE systems wont employ a civil engineer.
Please explain what evidence you are basing your first comment on, most of my teachers through school were female and I do not feel it harmed my education.

Equally your comment that 'the smartest people in the world are men' is oversimplistic. Throughout history men have been given priority in education, my college at Cambridge only started letting women in twenty years ago for example. It is therefore hardly suprising that the majority of public intellectuals (even up to the present day) are men. That said, in fields where women have been able to work with parity - such as literature - they have excelled. Consider the Bronte sisters, Jane Austen, Harper Lee, even J.K Rowling.
My own subject, Philosophy, is one traditionally dominated my men. However in the last half century many female philosophers have started to make their mark (Foot, Anscombe). It seems obvious to me that this is correllated with their acceptance into higher education and equality of educational opportunities. The same is true with the sciences and engineering.
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juicyfruit
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I can't believe you're even asking this?
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Sk1lLz
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Yes, I do think that women and men should be paid equally, except:

1. They shouldn't get paid for having time off work for having a baby. Same goes for paternity leave.

2. Women involved in jobs that have a smaller audience (e.g. sports) should be paid less, as there's less money in it.

I may expand these in future...

But ethnic minorities should be paid equally... there's no excuse. But since the majority of the UK is white, the public turns a blind eye.
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Bornstubborn
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(Original post by Cognito)
Please explain what evidence you are basing your first comment on, most of my teachers through school were female and I do not feel it harmed my education.

Equally your comment that 'the smartest people in the world are men' is oversimplistic. Throughout history men have been given priority in education, my college at Cambridge only started letting women in twenty years ago for example. It is therefore hardly suprising that the majority of public intellectuals (even up to the present day) are men. That said, in fields where women have been able to work with parity - such as literature - they have excelled. Consider the Bronte sisters, Jane Austen, Harper Lee, even J.K Rowling.
My own subject, Philosophy, is one traditionally dominated my men. However in the last half century many female philosophers have started to make their mark (Foot, Anscombe). It seems obvious to me that this is correllated with their acceptance into higher education and equality of educational opportunities. The same is true with the sciences and engineering.
My comment is based on the amount of boys failing in education and the fact girls are far exceeding boys at GCSE especially. I expect you have a different reasoning for this problem?

Well to be honest, women have had quite a while where the table's are even and infact now they are more favourable to women. So where are these new female intellectuals making scientific discoveries, breakthroughs and research?

Literature and philosophy are subjective subjects, they do not impress me. Science, maths and engineering are the core of human development, not writing stupid kids books.
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anyarian
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Um, yes. Yes they should.
Let me take a wild guess... you vote (or will vote, when old enough) UKIP or BNP... and if you read a newspaper, it's The Sun or the Daily Mail.
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Bornstubborn
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(Original post by anyarian)
Um, yes. Yes they should.
Let me take a wild guess... you vote (or will vote, when old enough) UKIP or BNP... and if you read a newspaper, it's The Sun or the Daily Mail.
I am 22. I read all the papers i can. The sun is funny, i wonder if people take it seriously when i read it. I never read the daily mail. I ussually read the indy and the guardian (just because i get them for free). I wouldn't vote BNP or UKIP, the BNP would probably want me to leave the country.

You are Armenian?
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anyarian
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(Original post by Sk1lLz)
1. They shouldn't get paid for having time off work for having a baby.
Ahh, I see. So what do they pay the rent with whilst pregnant? What do they eat?

If they weren't paid whilst on maternity leave, everyone would just have to pay even higher taxes, so that their rent, food and other basic needs are covered whilst they are pregnant.
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Misogynist
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(Original post by SarahhhD)
Thats like saying "Just because He's polish he shouldn't be payed as much as me" Which is Racism, and the statement is wrong if they are doing the same job as you.
No it isn't. There's no difference between a Polish man or woman and British man or woman. There is however a difference between Men and Women.

Just like applicants for certain high end degrees are weaned off because they don't meet the 'requirements' for it, Women shouldn't be allowed to take the place of someone who can do the job better.

Women have a larger peripheral vision and a deeper perception. Where those two qualities apply, they should be paid more.

Men however excluding the above two things, are 'better' mentally and physically and hence should be paid extra for doing the job better.
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SarahhhD
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(Original post by Misogynist)
No it isn't. There's no difference between a Polish man or woman and British man or woman. There is however a difference between Men and Women.

Just like applicants for certain high end degrees are weaned off because they don't meet the 'requirements' for it, Women shouldn't be allowed to take the place of someone who can do the job better.

Women have a larger peripheral vision and a deeper perception. Where those two qualities apply, they should be paid more.

Men however excluding the above two things, are 'better' mentally and physically and hence should be paid extra for doing the job better.
Yet Women can do jobs just as well -if not better- as men, even jobs which are primarly male domanated?
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Misogynist
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(Original post by SarahhhD)
Yet Women can do jobs just as well -if not better- as men, even jobs which are primarly male domanated?
Proof? It's more like the opposite. The best stylists, cooks and hairdressers are men.
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Sanity Panda
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Eww... what a rubbish thread.

Why are people still dealing with generalisations when life is about individual circumstances and specifics?
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