Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
This discussion is closed.
Gordon1985
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#3241
Report 6 years ago
#3241
(Original post by L i b)
Firstly, Flower of Scotland is used as a anthem, there's nothing massively official about that. The only time I've heard it sung is associated with the football or rugby. Even the Commonwealth Games team only started using it in the last few years. A national anthem is so much more than that.

But as to the meat of the issue, I don't think it does call for anything of the sort. As the lyrics suggest when talking about Bannockburn 'those days are past now/and in the past/ they must remain'. When it suggests rising and being the nation again that accomplished these things, it is promoting the idea of using the positive virtues which it assumes brought that victory. It is not suggesting a repeat of the same circumstances.
I wrote out a reply to Midlander's post then lost it as the internet dissapeared. But this was essentially what I was going to say, but you're said it much better than I did. Thanks.
0
Gordon1985
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#3242
Report 6 years ago
#3242
(Original post by Foo.mp3)
What happens to my passport/citizenship status, border controls, and my right to reside in the land of our fathers if old dour face and pals gets his way?.. that's just off the top of my head, there are a host of ways in which my identity could be threatened by this regressive insanity
I'm not entirely sure about your exact circumstance but I would imagine as far as passport/citizenship goes, you could quite easily have dual citizenship if you like and if you qualify. The Uk allows this and there's absolutely no reason to think an independent Scotland wouldn't.

There are no border controls between the UK and the Republic of Ireland, what possible reason is there to think there would be between the UK and an independent Scotland. Nobody has given any kind of indication that this would be a serious possibility as far as I know.

You would clearly always have a right to move to and live in Scotland. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. There is freedom of movement between EU countries. You could up sticks and move to Ireland, Italy or Germany tomorrow if you chose to. Not one person has ever suggested that might not be the case for an independent Scotland and there is absoltely no reason whatsoever to think you wouldn't be allowed.

So if you are born outside of Scotland and do not live there yet your family are from Scotland/have Scottish heritage going back hundreds of years (and forefathers played a major part in the success of Scotland as a trading nation in that epoch) you may not identify as a Scot? Haha, ok pal :rolleyes:
National identity is clearly a very subjective issue when people have mixed heritage or heritage from a place other than the place they were born/brought up. No reasonable person would take issue with you identifying as Scottish or not identifying as Scottish.

Nope, but it would represent the construction of needless and obstructive barriers between peoples

:facepalm2: Would you like me to quote back to you what you just said about Scots domiciled in other countries not being Scottish?

#SelfDefeatingNationalistLogic


I think you should quote it back to him, then read it again. That little curly thing at the end of the sentence - that's a question mark.

#UnionistInabilityToRead

Read between the lines mate. Failing that, see the top of this post
Show me the lines you think I need to read between. The first part of your post is uninformed, illogical nonsense, to be fair.
0
Maths Tutor
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#3243
Report 6 years ago
#3243
(Original post by Midlander)
Sorry, I just can't agree with this-even unionist Scots I know still say outrageous things like all English people should be ashamed of murdering Scots in the 14th century. Anglophobia is rife in Scotland and the SNP is of course playing on those sentiments for its own agenda. They forget that England isn't the only other country in this union.

What would independence gain you that you don't already have from devolution?

(Original post by Midlander)
Wales is a funny place. Everyone hates England with a burning passion but loves the economic perks of being its neighbour. If it were severed from Britain I wouldn't bat an eyelid.

(Original post by Midlander)
If English folk get ripped off it's fine.

(Original post by Midlander)
There are times in this thread where I have put forward the idea of England removing itself from the union for this specific reason. Our Celtic friends in Scotland, Wales and Ireland just love to blame England for all that is wrong in and with the UK and a lot of English people get sick of it after a while.

It is quite difficult to care deeply for Wales when it is full of Anglophobes and the same goes, to a lesser extent, for Scotland. You can't criticise this viewpoint as a nationalist yourself when what I am saying is that I actually wouldn't mind England breaking off and making Scotland's decision ready made.

Then Scots couldn't de facto blame England for anything that goes wrong as it would be solely them in charge. At the same time England would get full autonomy, which it has none of at the moment, and has the size to make a fist of things internationally.

Dividing the union need not be mandatory to achieve this however. Reform of the UK into a federal system similar to that of the US would give each nation autonomy over its own affairs, whilst more proportional voting could give Scots a better chance of getting their preferred government.

Independent figures on spending are such that it's difficult to say who is getting more than they put in. I will say however that Scotland still runs at deficits of billions even with the SNP oil claim, so for Salmond to claim that Scotland is one of the richest nations on the planet is ludicrous.

And he still hasn't addressed that obesity.

In your view:

"Anglophobia is rife in Scotland"

'Everyone in Wales hates England and you wouldn't bat an eyelid if it were severed from England'

You "have put forward the idea of England removing itself from the union"

So what on earth are you doing on this thread opposing Scottish Independence?

It is absolutely clear that you don't give a damn about Scotland or Wales, how could you when 'everyone in Scotland and Wales hates England'?

So it is obvious that it is for England's benefit that you want Scotland to stay.

So can you answer the question:

Do you believe that England subsidises Scotland?
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#3244
Report 6 years ago
#3244
(Original post by Gordon1985)
Honestly, what are you talking about. You're clearly the paranoid one who thinks all/most Scots hate you beause you're English.
I am being no more facetious than the witty Yes campaigners complaining about the 'EBC'.


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#3245
Report 6 years ago
#3245
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
In your view:

"Anglophobia is rife in Scotland"

'Everyone in Wales hates England and you wouldn't bat an eyelid if it were severed from England'

You "have put forward the idea of England removing itself from the union"

So what on earth are you doing on this thread opposing Scottish Independence?

It is absolutely clear that you don't give a damn about Scotland or Wales, how could you when 'everyone in Scotland and Wales hates England'?

So it is obvious that it is for England's benefit that you want Scotland to stay.

So can you answer the question:

Do you believe that England subsidises Scotland?
I am opposing it for the simple reason that I think the UK is in need of reform rather than division to improve for all parties.

How am I a 'champagne socialist'?


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
Gordon1985
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#3246
Report 6 years ago
#3246
(Original post by Midlander)
I am being no more facetious than the witty Yes campaigners complaining about the 'EBC'.


Posted from TSR Mobile

Oh right.
0
Maths Tutor
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#3247
Report 6 years ago
#3247
(Original post by Foo.mp3)
I'm not a Scottish resident but I have Scots ancestry and a Scottish surname, so what are these SNP fools saying?.. suddenly I'm no longer a Scot because some big fat, self important, dour faced Machiavellian ******* says so? Think not

(Original post by Maths Tutor)
So you will stop being a Scot if Scotland becomes an independent nation again?

You would stop feeling like a Scot if "some big fat, self important, dour faced Machiavellian ******* told you you were not a Scot?

All those with "Scots ancestry and a Scottish surname" living in the USA and throughout the world are not Scots?

All your relatives living in Scotland will suddenly feel 'foreigners' to you if Scotland becomes an independent nation?

You will start hating them then, because everyone in 'One Nation' hates foreigners?

Let me tell you this:

Scots would remain Scots even if Scotland, cut off at the border with England with a pair of scissors, sank permanently into the sea.

And throughout the world Scots would continue to be recognised as Scots.

(Original post by Foo.mp3)
What happens to my passport/citizenship status, border controls, and my right to reside in the land of our fathers if old dour face and pals gets his way?.. that's just off the top of my head, there are a host of ways in which my identity could be threatened by this regressive insanity

So if you are born outside of Scotland and do not live there yet your family are from Scotland/have Scottish heritage going back hundreds of years (and forefathers played a major part in the success of Scotland as a trading nation in that epoch) you may not identify as a Scot? Haha, ok pal :rolleyes:

Nope, but it would represent the construction of needless and obstructive barriers between peoples

To be honest, history teaches us that yes, creating lines of division has the opposite effect of bringing people together

What’s that got to do with anything? You’re just showing your true colours with such a comment mate, Scotland can do without such distasteful attitudes

:facepalm2: Would you like me to quote back to you what you just said about Scots domiciled in other countries not being Scottish?

#SelfDefeatingNationalistLogic

IKR, lad should be on commission..

First of all look back at the stupidity of your original comment.

Ethnically, a Scot is a Scot wherever in the world he/she lives and will continue to do so after Scotland's independence.

Even after so many generations in the USA, many Scots still identify themselves as being of Scottish descent.

Scottish independence will not change your relationship with your relatives in Scotland or anywhere else in the world. So stop this 'One Nation' Labour nonsense of relatives becoming foreigners.

As you don't live in Scotland, you are already that much removed from Scotland. Scotland's independence will have no bearing on that whatsoever.

I am sure it will be specified in the forthcoming White Paper, but my understanding is any Scot who currently has UK citizenship will be entitled to Scottish citizenship, wherever he/she is living at present.

It is only if rUK then withdraws your rUK citizenship, you will have a problem. But you will have to ask Alistair Darling about rUK policy in the event of a YES vote.

Regarding border controls, again you will have to ask Alistair Darling about rUK policy in the event of a YES vote.

An SNP government in Scotland will not impose border controls at the border with England.

But then a Labour government led by Johann Lamont might impose border controls at the border with England. You need to ask Johann Lamont, who will give you her view as soon as Milliband has told her what it is. But don't hold your breath.

Every single question put to YES Scotland has to be put to NO Scotland as well.

Only then can the people of Scotland decide whether to vote YES or NO.
0
Maths Tutor
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#3248
Report 6 years ago
#3248
(Original post by L i b)
Yet Conservative policy is to remain within the EU and, indeed, there are many of us who see a solid role for the EU in the future. Making something better is not the same as attempting to destroy it.
Are YOU in favour of a YES/NO referendum on (r)UK membership of the EU?

If so, in YOUR view, when should it be held?

Are YOU confident that r(UK) will vote NO to 'separation' from the EU?
0
Maths Tutor
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#3249
Report 6 years ago
#3249
(Original post by Midlander)
I am opposing it for the simple reason that I think the UK is in need of reform rather than division to improve for all parties.
That is a complete lie given your previous posts, which I have quoted.

How can you possibly 'reform' the Anglophobia that is wide spread in Scotland according to you?

Everyone in Wales hates England according to you. How are you going to 'reform' that?

England subsidises Scotland and Wales according to you. How are you going to 'reform' that?

How can you 'reform' a marriage where the 2 partners hate each other?

Why don't you stop lying and admit that you want Scotland to remain part of the union because YOU think that ENGLAND will be worse off if Scotland becomes independent?

Why don't you admit that you don't care what happens to Scotland? After all everyone here hates you and your girlfriend and her family so why would you care about such people?
0
Maths Tutor
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#3250
Report 6 years ago
#3250
(Original post by Midlander)
How am I a 'champagne socialist'?
That depends on your answers to my previous questions:

How can a millionaire ever be a 'socialist'?

How can Johann Lamont, with a household income of £150,000 per year ever be a 'socialist'?
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#3251
Report 6 years ago
#3251
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Are YOU in favour of a YES/NO referendum on (r)UK membership of the EU?

If so, in YOUR view, when should it be held?

Are YOU confident that r(UK) will vote NO to 'separation' from the EU?
No, but I can see the argument for it and uphold the right to do it; and no.

When would I have one? Well, if there had to be one it depends on the government. If the UK government could unite in favour of one and the holding of the renegotiation which is central to the idea then as soon as possible. If the Lib Dems didn't back it, then it would be simply be a party policy in which case the only time it could be held would be after a general election where that party gained a majority.
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#3252
Report 6 years ago
#3252
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
An SNP government in Scotland will not impose border controls at the border with England.
I doubt that's true. If an overwhelming agreement of member-states said that an independent Scotland should not get an opt-out from Schengen to get into the EU then I think an SNP government would agree to that rather than choose not to join. That would indeed require border checks.
0
Maths Tutor
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#3253
Report 6 years ago
#3253
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Are YOU in favour of a YES/NO referendum on (r)UK membership of the EU?

If so, in YOUR view, when should it be held?

Are YOU confident that r(UK) will vote NO to 'separation' from the EU?

(Original post by L i b)
No, but I can see the argument for it and uphold the right to do it; and no.

When would I have one? Well, if there had to be one it depends on the government. If the UK government could unite in favour of one and the holding of the renegotiation which is central to the idea then as soon as possible. If the Lib Dems didn't back it, then it would be simply be a party policy in which case the only time it could be held would be after a general election where that party gained a majority.

YOU are NOT in favour of a YES/NO referendum on (r)UK membership of the EU. Why not?

Assuming that the Conservatives get a working majority at the 2015 election, when do YOU think they should hold the referendum? If they put a rough date in their manifesto, what do YOU think it should be?

YOU are NOT confident that r(UK) will vote NO to 'separation' from the EU? So YOU think it is quite possible that (r)UK will vote YES to 'separation' from the EU?
0
Maths Tutor
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#3254
Report 6 years ago
#3254
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
An SNP government in Scotland will not impose border controls at the border with England.
(Original post by L i b)
I doubt that's true. If an overwhelming agreement of member-states said that an independent Scotland should not get an opt-out from Schengen to get into the EU then I think an SNP government would agree to that rather than choose not to join. That would indeed require border checks.

(First of all, we need to be clear that the EU DOES NOT HAVE ANY LEGAL BASIS WHATSOEVER FOR EXPELLING SCOTLAND FROM THE EU between 19th September 2014 and the actual date of independence probably March 2016.

No nonsense about what Barroso or anyone else at the EU has said or any scaremongering by 'Better Together'.

And don't bring the Euro into this)



If there is a YES vote on 18th September 2014, will it be the current SNP government that re-negotiates the terms of Scotland's membership of the EU between 19th September 2014 and the actual date of independence? Or will the other parties be involved?

The SNP has repeatedly stated that it wants a common travel area with rUK and Ireland. Assuming, a Schengen opt-out, do YOU think that rUK will be opposed to this? Why?

Why do YOU think the SNP government would prefer EU membership with Schengen and border controls with England, to remaining outside the EU and having a common travel area with rUK?

Whatever terms the SNP government agrees with the EU, should Independent Scotland hold a referendum on that? If not, why not?
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#3255
Report 6 years ago
#3255
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
YOU are NOT in favour of a YES/NO referendum on (r)UK membership of the EU. Why not?
Because I don't support change to the current situation and indeed believe the public are fairly poorly informed on this issue. I don't think they'll add very much to the debate.

I oppose referendums except in the very most extreme circumstances. Approving a written constitution or something like that is more or less my only exception.

Assuming that the Conservatives get a working majority at the 2015 election, when do YOU think they should hold the referendum? If they put a rough date in their manifesto, what do YOU think it should be?
2016 or there abouts. Within the first half of their term, certainly.

are NOT confident that r(UK) will vote NO to 'separation' from the EU? So YOU think it is quite possible that (r)UK will vote YES to 'separation' from the EU?
Well, er, yes. That's a fairly reasonable deduction.

Polling would suggest that there exists a fairly significant chunk of people who would vote to exit in a simple two-option referendum. That could easily form a majority. More precise polling, however, indicates people would want to stay in the EU under renegotiated terms.

If you want the EU to fit the desires of the British people - which I can't say I think is of huge importance given that most of them barely understand it - then staying in under somewhat modified terms would be the way to go about it.
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#3256
Report 6 years ago
#3256
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
[B](First of all, we need to be clear that the EU DOES NOT HAVE ANY LEGAL BASIS WHATSOEVER FOR EXPELLING SCOTLAND FROM THE EU between 19th September 2014 and the actual date of independence probably March 2016.

No nonsense about what Barroso or anyone else at the EU has said or any scaremongering by 'Better Together'.
Scotland could not be expelled before whenever in 2016. It is part of a member-state and there is no provision in the treaties for expulsion of any member-state. However if Scotland became a separate state from the UK, it would not be a member. It wouldn't 'cease' to be a member, or be 'expelled' - it would never have been a member.

That is simple, straightforward international law. Anyone who tries to pretend otherwise is feeding you internet pseudolegal nonsense.

If there is a YES vote on 18th September 2014, will it be the current SNP government that re-negotiates the terms of Scotland's membership of the EU between 19th September 2014 and the actual date of independence? Or will the other parties be involved?
Well, Scotland couldn't negotiate entry during that time. Article 49 TEU is quite clear that you have to be a "European state" to negotiate entry or membership. Scotland would not be one of those until the date of independence.

In theory, the UK could have discussions about it with the other member-states and effectively create informal agreements to speed things up come the date Scotland separates off - but the Scottish Government could not.

The SNP has repeatedly stated that it wants a common travel area with rUK and Ireland. Assuming, a Schengen opt-out, do YOU think that rUK will be opposed to this? Why?
No I do not. But if we exclude the Schengen issue, it is a matter of national interests. If it continues to be in the UK's national interest to have an open border, then fine. If it ceases to be - as it has often seemed may well happen with the CTA between the UK and Ireland - then it will end. This could come about from Scotland diverging significantly from UK immigration policy, or poor enforcement of marine boundaries or any number of things.

Why do YOU think the SNP government would prefer EU membership with Schengen and border controls with England, to remaining outside the EU and having a common travel area with rUK?
Because I believe the SNP's entire economic policy hinges on EU membership. They have been almost loopy in their pro-EU stance in recent years.

Whatever terms the SNP government agrees with the EU, should Independent Scotland hold a referendum on that? If not, why not?
I don't really have a strong opinion either way on that.
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#3257
Report 6 years ago
#3257
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
That depends on your answers to my previous questions:

How can a millionaire ever be a 'socialist'?

How can Johann Lamont, with a household income of £150,000 per year ever be a 'socialist'?
I haven't called any of them socialists.


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#3258
Report 6 years ago
#3258
As an aside, what happens with regard to the UK general election if there's a Yes vote? What point is there in Scots voting for something that they know they won't be part of a year after? There is then also the difficulty of the Scottish vote causing the 'winning' party not having enough seats for a majority once they leave the system.

The only answer seems to be to postpone the general election until the independence date.


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
Psyk
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#3259
Report 6 years ago
#3259
(Original post by L i b)
In theory, the UK could have discussions about it with the other member-states and effectively create informal agreements to speed things up come the date Scotland separates off - but the Scottish Government could not.
Isn't the Scottish government effectively an organ of the UK government though? At least until the actual date of independence if the referendum goes that way. Surely the UK government could nominate someone from the Scottish government to be part of those discussions.
0
Gordon1985
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#3260
Report 6 years ago
#3260
(Original post by Midlander)
As an aside, what happens with regard to the UK general election if there's a Yes vote? What point is there in Scots voting for something that they know they won't be part of a year after? There is then also the difficulty of the Scottish vote causing the 'winning' party not having enough seats for a majority once they leave the system.

The only answer seems to be to postpone the general election until the independence date.


Posted from TSR Mobile
Good question actually. If postponemnet was acceptable to the rest of the UK, it would probably be a decent idea. Persoanally, I'd have some kind of exceptional dispensation being made where current Scottish MPs stay in Westminster for the 1 year but only have powers to vote on matters which directly affect Scotland.
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Have you made up your mind on your five uni choices?

Yes I know where I'm applying (128)
65.31%
No I haven't decided yet (40)
20.41%
Yes but I might change my mind (28)
14.29%

Watched Threads

View All