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    (Original post by Tyrion_Lannister)
    Most abortions (88%) are obtained in the first trimester of pregnancy. In fact, over half of all abortions are obtained within the first 8 weeks. Fewer than 2% occur at 21 weeks or later.5

    http://www.prochoice.org/about_abort...women_who.html
    So abortion occurs after fusion, my point still stands. Change conception to moment of abortion, our discussion didn't really change anything...
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    (Original post by Ghostly.)
    Regardless it still proves that people would save the baby first. The identical twins argument proves my point also, the other person is closer to you, means more to you. Therefore the idea that a foetus is JUST AS EQUAL to an actual alive baby is not true because people secretly value the baby more.
    By closest I meant physically not emotionally e.i. within my grasp. My whole post was based on how they were equal but you somehow interpreted it otherwise. In addition to this, I don't think of it as oh no I saved an unborn baby over a born one, I think of it as I saved a baby over another baby, 9 months down the line the result would still be the same.
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    (Original post by Ghostly.)
    Now yeah, there is a chance some bad situations can be overcome, but would you rather take that gamble?
    depends on the situation, the vast majority I would as I think it's far crueler to give them absolutely no chance of life as you don't what will happen.

    There are other options if you are unfit to raise the child e.g. adoption

    There are some situations which abortion may be acceptable but these are few and far between. It's too easy to have an abortion these days. For example, you can abort babies because they will have a have a disability. Yet if you were to kill your child who had to use a wheelchair or had down's syndrome or something, there would be a massive outrage! (and rightly so) but how is that any different to aborting your child because of a disability?
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    (Original post by Gray Wolf)
    I have a ball in my hand. I drop the ball, now with interfering without the ball it will most definitely fall to the floor. This is its natural cycle. I let go, ball falls, ball hits the ground. The fact that the ball will fall is a fact. Now let me ask you, what is the difference between me releasing the ball, catching it before it even leaves my hand and burning it and me dropping the ball and catching it half-way and burning it. The answer is; there is none! You end a natural cycle before its definite end, you kill of the emotions, the experiences it was definitely going to have; you have killed a person.

    Now let me give you some statistics:

    196,082 abortions in the UK in 2011
    44,000,000 abortions (that is 44 million) in the world
    Let me put this in to perspective, in 10 years you have killed more than the population of the united States.

    7% of abortions are for either a consequence of rape or health problems to the mother. The rest is because of social reasons. This just infuriates me, if you don't kill your fellow man to steal his money why kill your own child?

    Millions are killed every year because people are unable to make an emotional connection with them just because they are bound in a sack of skin. The same people that say "How could the Nazis kill millions of people" well they did it the same way you do!

    (the You refers to everyone supporting abortion)

    Thank you for reading,

    Gray Wolf
    No one apart from the woman has any right over her body, so why should should she be forced to have a baby if she does not want it
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    (Original post by Gray Wolf)
    Did you even read what I wrote? It said conception is when they when the fuse and to fuse they need to implant...
    Firstly, you shouldn't try to argue using scientific terms if you have no idea what they mean. I mean, this stuff is trivial.

    Secondly, after conception the most likely outcome of the pregnancy is miscarriage. Even after the pregnancy is detected by the mother, which most never are, about 20% will perish naturally before 8 weeks.

    Thirdly, this would imply there is a point where the conceptus magically turns from "not a person" to "a person". This alone leads to problems since the transition is a lot longer and more complicated than that.

    Fourthly, why do you have the right to determine what the woman does with her body, and why does the conceptus' unlikely future self have a right to decide what to do with her body?


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    (Original post by Robbie242)
    **** off this isn't North Dakota, or republican america for that matter.

    Having an abortion is better than bringing at child into life without loving parents or care, or nurturing or good living conditions etc
    I agree with this... lets just have babies everywhere, in the draws, in the cupboards, in council houses, in 3rd world countries, in the streets and starving ...oh wait !
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    (Original post by Gray Wolf)
    I have a ball in my hand. I drop the ball, now with interfering without the ball it will most definitely fall to the floor. This is its natural cycle. I let go, ball falls, ball hits the ground. The fact that the ball will fall is a fact. Now let me ask you, what is the difference between me releasing the ball, catching it before it even leaves my hand and burning it and me dropping the ball and catching it half-way and burning it. The answer is; there is none! You end a natural cycle before its definite end, you kill of the emotions, the experiences it was definitely going to have; you have killed a person.
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    (Original post by nju)
    No one apart from the woman has any right over her body, so why should should she be forced to have a baby if she does not want it
    no one is forcing the mother to become pregnant. the situation changes when she decides to kill another person, destroys another person's body.
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    (Original post by Ghostly.)
    Wow don't be an idiot and try and use my argument against me.
    You actually just proved my point, thank you.
    That is THE POINT. I would find it really difficult to chose who to save, therefore suggesting I see them as equal! You would chose the baby over the foetus hands down, I don't even care if you say you wouldn't, I'd like to see anyone not make that decision in real life no matter what you say here.
    the difficulty in saving another person or deciding who to save is not based on who you feel deserves to live or is more human than the other. I am glad you are not a doctor who has to make these decisions.

    I did not prove your point. I do not appreciate you calling me an idiot either.

    "I would find it really difficult to chose who to save, therefore suggesting I see them as equal!" could you explain this sentence?
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    Sounds like somebody just watched Minority Report and completely misunderstood the analogy.
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    (Original post by Tyrion_Lannister)
    I don't think that exists, if it did it would be more known about. The only ones available are the morning after pill or the coil, neither of which are 100% effective.
    oh well. lesson learned.
    thanks.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    As somebody who has become pregnant through rape and aborted the foetus, I think I would know what it's like - and it's horrid. The people who were the least supportive of my decision? The pro-life nuts who could care less about my health and wellbeing but who were totally up for me keeping the baby (but of course not helping me out financially or socially or in any other way after the pregnancy had run its course) were the least supportive and most vindictive of all the people I came into contact with in the process.
    what is horrid? may you please be specific? are you describing everything: from the rape, to the abortion, and there after?
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    (Original post by Gray Wolf)
    There is of course another argument I can use. I see undeveloped babies as definite potential, life that will definitely come to being. However baby is in itself life, so one could argue it has more value as definite potential has come to being. So you may choose to save the baby.

    However, it is like being offered 19 pounds and 20 pounds and only being able to pick one. One would pick 20 pounds but you would not burn the 19 pounds if offered at another time.

    This argument assumes there is a slight difference in achieved potential and to be definite potential.

    You may use either depending on belief.
    'Potential lives' mean nothing. I didn't play the lottery today; does that fact make me a 'potential millionaire'?

    Hell, the fact you haven't spent every living moment of your life having sex means that there are a lot of POTENTIAL PEOPLE who could have been that were never born. Using anti-choice logic, that would make you a mass murderer... and 90 year old virgins the worst mass murders alive.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Since you can't back that up, I'm going to assume that I am right and you have no idea what you're talking about. You're the one making the claim, how about YOU go to the hospital and find out?

    As for your hypothetical raped pregnant woman, as somebody who is pro-CHOICE I would let her make her own decision. I wouldn't try and bully her (which is what I think you would do, given your badly worded stance throughout this thread) into keeping a baby she didn't want because you think the unborn foetus is more important than her opinion. As somebody who has become pregnant through rape and aborted the foetus, I think I would know what it's like - and it's horrid. The people who were the least supportive of my decision? The pro-life nuts who could care less about my health and wellbeing but who were totally up for me keeping the baby (but of course not helping me out financially or socially or in any other way after the pregnancy had run its course) were the least supportive and most vindictive of all the people I came into contact with in the process.
    Interesting, isn't it? How the same people who call themselves 'pro-life' seem to be very much okay with cutting support for the poorest and most in need members of society when it saves them a pretty penny in taxes. It's a point most people overlook in debates.
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    (Original post by da_nolo)
    no one is forcing the mother to become pregnant. the situation changes when she decides to kill another person, destroys another person's body.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape
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    (Original post by DCFCfan4eva)
    Yet if you were to kill your child who had to use a wheelchair or had down's syndrome or something, there would be a massive outrage! (and rightly so) but how is that any different to aborting your child because of a disability?
    Do you believe in life after death? Do you believe that if the baby dies it's just gone, no memory of its life etc?
    Think about if you were to die in your sleep, or something that you never saw coming and it just happened, bam, you don't remember it at all. Or if I were to murder you, painfully.

    Now don't get me wrong I know you'll probably tell me they have nerves, yes, but they don't have feelings. And even if they properly did, like you and I, they wouldn't remember them in the slightest. Not even a little bit. People don't remember things from when they were under 3 anyway.


    If I had a disability that made me unhappy or unable to do things I live, i'd be angry that I wasn't aborted.
    I've already decided that if I become blind or have a serious accident i'm more than likely to kill myself...
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    (Original post by da_nolo)
    "I would find it really difficult to chose who to save, therefore suggesting I see them as equal!" could you explain this sentence?
    If it was genuine, I could literally only save one no matter what, there's no "oh well I wouldn't be in that situation". If it were between a psychopath who had killed my family and others and told me he is going to kill me too etc etc, against my best friend, I'll obviously save my best friend because I would value his life over the psychopaths. The decision would be easy (not to mention he'd kill me if I didn't)

    If it were against my parents, or two people who are genuinely equal to me, I would find it really difficult to make a decision as I love them both equally.

    Let me make this clear... My point wasn't that you're all liars as such, my point was you can't say you find them equal if you would go for the baby instantly. I'm not saying you all would either. If you would find it as difficult as me choosing between my parents then you have a strong view about abortion and I respect that you are allowed that view. My point was just saying you can't say both

    I don't mean an offence or anything

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    (Original post by March)
    'Potential lives' mean nothing. I didn't play the lottery today; does that fact make me a 'potential millionaire'?

    Hell, the fact you haven't spent every living moment of your life having sex means that there are a lot of POTENTIAL PEOPLE who could have been that were never born. Using anti-choice logic, that would make you a mass murderer... and 90 year old virgins the worst mass murders alive.
    I don't think you understand the difference between potential and definite potential.
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    What you mean the 1% of abortion cases? You do know laws can be passed for the 7% (that is rape and health problems included) legitimate cases. We don't just do blanket laws you know...

    But the other 93% must be tackled and that is a definite.
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    (Original post by Gray Wolf)
    I don't think you understand the difference between potential and definite potential.
    'Definite potential' isn't a recognised term by, well, anybody. For starters, the fact abortions are possible (natural or otherwise) mean there's nothing 'definite' about a pregnancy to begin with, but moving past that, you're using that made up term to arbitrarily separate potentials of varying probabilities without explaining why ignoring the probability threshold you've set is immoral in itself.

    Why is probability the important topic here? You still haven't explained your reason for believing an embryo is more human than a bundle of skin cells.
 
 
 
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