Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Bakery refuses to make "gay cake"; faces legal action Watch

    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    That's not what happened here though. They were not barred from the premises nor are they actually refused service because of their sexual orientation.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by limetang)
    That's not what happened here though. They were not barred from the premises nor are they actually refused service because of their sexual orientation.
    I think the law would also cover indirect discrimination as well as direct as per the laws on sex discrimination.

    We shall see if the case comes to court but it is in line with previous laws.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    What do people think of this story?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581



    My two cents. As much as I support gay marriage and the equality act, I think the bakery is not guilty as it stands. I don't see that they've discriminated against the customer because of his or her sexual orientation, but because of the political cause. They could reasonably be assumed to refuse were the customer straight (indeed did they even know the customer's sexuality?).

    What if the bakery were asked to make a cake for other political or moral stances. "Vote BNP" or "gays burn in hell" or something? I think they should be allowed to refuse to make cakes they don't like as long as they don't discriminate against their customers.
    Its their business so they should choose to run it however they like, if people don't like it, then they just don't buy from it.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by qwerty73)
    Its their business so they should choose to run it however they like, if people don't like it, then they just don't buy from it.
    Ignorance of the law is simply ignorance and not an excuse

    Sales of Goods Act and Equality Act are terms you should investigate

    F
    • Community Assistant
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    The customer knew what outcry this would cause, so he obviously went to that particular store knowing their sensibilities. Why didn't he just go down the road to the non-religious bakery?
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ClickItBack)
    The problem really boils down to a law that, interpreted literally, totally restricts all liberty. Hence said law is always interpreted in the context of 'oppressed groups', whether ethnicity, sexuality, religion, whatever.

    It's pretty easy to expose the horrible inconsistency of this (and of people on this thread adamant that the cake shop were in the wrong). Just imagine an atheist asking a cake shop owned by Muslims to have an image of Prophet Muhammad defecating on it. That scenario will probably short circuit some of the 'stupid' left's minds (i.e. the ones for whom every decision is to be judged a) only on moral grounds b) only their own morals are valid and c) only inconveniences to 'oppressed groups' are immoral)
    There's a fairly clear difference between a pro-gay cake, and a graphic image like defecation. So, no - that doesn't expose hypocrisy unless you think that the cake that was rejected was asking to depict two people having sex (which wasn't the case)

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    They haven't turned anyone down based on their sexual orientation though so how is this a valid comparison?
    The guy I quoted said this...

    "They are a business, and can (and should) refuse service to who ever the damn well please."

    That means they should be able to refuse service to black people if they so wish. Which is obviously a terrible idea.

    I said that in the example given in the OP I am neutral.

    i'm just sick of hearing people on here act as if a private business owners can do whatever they feel like just because they run a private business, because they can't. They can do what they like within a framework of rules, some of these rules are set up to avoid discrimination.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    There's a fairly clear difference between a pro-gay cake, and a graphic image like defecation. So, no - that doesn't expose hypocrisy unless you think that the cake that was rejected was asking to depict two people having sex (which wasn't the case)

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Well if you are arbitrarily saying it's OK to refuse to print graphic images, why shouldn't the cake shop be allowed to arbitrarily define what it does and does not produce?
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Maker)
    I think the law would also cover indirect discrimination as well as direct as per the laws on sex discrimination.

    We shall see if the case comes to court but it is in line with previous laws.
    It seems to be the belief that the law this violates is section 14 of the equality act.

    The law is there to protect individuals from being denied a service due to the possession of a protected characteristic.

    First and foremost let's do away with the idea that this is discrimination based on sexual orientation. It's not. At best it's discrimination based on political views.

    Now have we actually had a case like this before setting precedent E. G. A printer refusing to print a poster for bringing back the death penalty? Because if not then I do start to wonder about whether or not there is a case to be made here.

    Further the acid test for you: would it be right for a gay baker to refuse to bake a cake saying "no to gay marriage"?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by limetang)
    It seems to be the belief that the law this violates is section 14 of the equality act.

    The law is there to protect individuals from being denied a service due to the possession of a protected characteristic.

    First and foremost let's do away with the idea that this is discrimination based on sexual orientation. It's not. At best it's discrimination based on political views.

    Now have we actually had a case like this before setting precedent E. G. A printer refusing to print a poster for bringing back the death penalty? Because if not then I do start to wonder about whether or not there is a case to be made here.

    Further the acid test for you: would it be right for a gay baker to refuse to bake a cake saying "no to gay marriage"?
    I don't think framing it as a political issue will fly. You can assert racial equality, feminism or religious equality as political as well but the courts can tell the difference.

    Of course, the characteristics of the person doing the discrimination has no bearing on the discrimination itself. There is no provision in the law for it.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    There's a fairly clear difference between a pro-gay cake, and a graphic image like defecation. So, no - that doesn't expose hypocrisy unless you think that the cake that was rejected was asking to depict two people having sex (which wasn't the case)

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Forget defecation then. Just an image of the Prophet.

    And if you're going to claim that there's still a big difference between that and a pro gay marriage slogan, then I think you're missing the point.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Maker)
    I don't think framing it as a political issue will fly. You can assert racial equality, feminism or religious equality as political as well but the courts can tell the difference.

    Of course, the characteristics of the person doing the discrimination has no bearing on the discrimination itself. There is no provision in the law for it.
    Support for gay marriage is a political view it is no means exclusively held by gay people in fact further it's not actually a view all gay people hold. So to frame the discrimination of these bakers as being one to do with the sexual orientation of the customer is absurd. That's what I'm saying.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Maker)
    If its OK for a bakery to break the law if there is another one they can get their cakes from, I expect you will agree is OK to have a rat infested bakery as long as there is another vermin free bakery in the vicinity.
    Wait, there's a law saying you have to accept custom?
    Well i didn't know that.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by limetang)
    Support for gay marriage is a political view it is no means exclusively held by gay people in fact further it's not actually a view all gay people hold. So to frame the discrimination of these bakers as being one to do with the sexual orientation of the customer is absurd. That's what I'm saying.
    I am not clear as to why you think a subject is political because not everyone who could support it don't.

    I am assuming you think supporting Man United is also a political topic because not everyone in Manchester supports them.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mutleybm1996)
    Wait, there's a law saying you have to accept custom?
    Well i didn't know that.
    I suspect the rat infested bakery would be less popular.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Maker)
    I am not clear as to why you think a subject is political because not everyone who could support it don't.

    I am assuming you think supporting Man United is also a political topic because not everyone in Manchester supports them.
    Way to miss the point. It's NOT a sexuality issue because your own personal sexuality is not actually dependent upon your support or lack of for same sex marriage. That's my point.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by limetang)
    Way to miss the point. It's NOT a sexuality issue because your own personal sexuality is not actually dependent upon your support or lack of for same sex marriage. That's my point.
    The majority of Man United supporters are not from Manchester, does that make support for MU political?
    • Study Helper
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ClickItBack)
    Forget defecation then. Just an image of the Prophet.

    And if you're going to claim that there's still a big difference between that and a pro gay marriage slogan, then I think you're missing the point.
    Unless there is a good reason for doing so, the government says (rightly so) that one cannot discriminate on the basis of:
    • age
    • disability
    • gender reassignment
    • marriage or civil partnership
    • race
    • religion or belief
    • sex
    • sexual orientation


    Do you disagree with that in anyway? The government tries it's best for everyone, and they have correctly taken the stance of supporting the rights of homosexuals. The government shouldn't allow shops to prevent the sale of goods on the basis of sexuality. One argument used is that it is against Christianity (similar to any religion really). However, that belief is against another fundamental right of society.

    The religious stance of disallowing portrayals of prophets does no harm to anybody. It's not really a discrimination against anything.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RVNmax)
    Unless there is a good reason for doing so, the government says (rightly so) that one cannot discriminate on the basis of:
    • age
    • disability
    • gender reassignment
    • marriage or civil partnership
    • race
    • religion or belief
    • sex
    • sexual orientation


    Do you disagree with that in anyway? The government tries it's best for everyone, and they have correctly taken the stance of supporting the rights of homosexuals. The government shouldn't allow shops to prevent the sale of goods on the basis of sexuality. One argument used is that it is against Christianity (similar to any religion really). However, that belief is against another fundamental right of society.

    The religious stance of disallowing portrayals of prophets does no harm to anybody. It's not really a discrimination against anything.
    Nothing you stated bears any relevance to my example.

    Feel free to answer my query though: if an atheist asks a Muslim cake shop owner to bake a cake depicting the Prophet Muhammad on it, is it acceptable for the cake shop owner to refuse?
    • Study Helper
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ClickItBack)
    Nothing you stated bears any relevance to my example.

    Feel free to answer my query though: if an atheist asks a Muslim cake shop owner to bake a cake depicting the Prophet Muhammad on it, is it acceptable for the cake shop owner to refuse?

    I did answer. I answered why the bakery shouldn't be able to refuse like they did the real case. Then I said why a bakery should be able to refuse as per your own example.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: July 18, 2014
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Did TEF Bronze Award affect your UCAS choices?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.