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      (Original post by Monsieur Gamma)
      Whatever. I've got no time for the likes of you. Cheerio.
      So I win? If you can't debate and tell me why I was wrong then clearly you were wrong in the first place, yes?
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      (Original post by tehFrance)
      So I win? If you can't debate and tell me why I was wrong then clearly you were wrong in the first place, yes?
      "So I win? " ... aww does the belligerent arrogant fool want a medal? bless.
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      (Original post by tehFrance)
      So I win? If you can't debate and tell me why I was wrong then clearly you were wrong in the first place, yes?
      alternatively, it's a case of agrumentum ad nauseum.
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        (Original post by Monsieur Gamma)
        "So I win? " ... aww does the belligerent arrogant fool want a medal? bless.
        No I'd like you to put forward a case as to why you were correct in your assertion that Russians hate Capitalism.
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        (Original post by tehFrance)
        No I'd like you to put forward a case as to why you were correct in your assertion that Russians hate Capitalism.
        And as I've meticulously told this ere' honourable gentleman, I'm not bothered about you or your antics any more ... good day.
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        (Original post by DaveSmith99)
        Wildly speculating on incredibly unlikely events is not good journalism, I can't see any reason for suggesting that it is.
        It's a pretty clear motive actually. In the absence of evidence the court of public opinion will convict the separatists. I've also seen you repeatedly claim that there is no way that the Ukrainians would have accidentally shot it down: I would direct you to Iran air 655.

        It seems to me that you are criticising everyone who considers the possibility that this was not the separatists. Great neutrality.


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          (Original post by Monsieur Gamma)
          And as I've meticulously told this ere' honourable gentleman, I'm not bothered about you or your antics any more ... good day.
          Why are you so afraid to debate, is it because your two years as an International Relations student has actually taught you **** all about Russia, the economy and how it works so your opinion on it is rather skewed in favour of saying something as if it's fact without backing it up when asked?

          Shame, I thought that as you'd done IR we'd be able to have a good debate alas your university has let you down, you should ask for your money back if you're incapable of debate.
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          (Original post by LightBlueSoldier)
          It's a pretty clear motive actually. In the absence of evidence the court of public opinion will convict the separatists. I've also seen you repeatedly claim that there is no way that the Ukrainians would have accidentally shot it down: I would direct you to Iran air 655.

          It seems to me that you are criticising everyone who considers the possibility that this was not the separatists. Great neutrality.


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          There isn't no way it was the Ukrainian Government, it's just incredibly unlikely, and good journalism isn't widely speculating on incredibly unlikely events.

          That's still not a real motive, the risks of the world discovering what they did far outweigh any menial gains that they get from the world thinking it was the separatists.

          As for the Iran air 655 point, I guess we have to start widely speculating that it was the Russian military as well then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...nes_Flight_007
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          (Original post by LightBlueSoldier)
          It's a pretty clear motive actually. In the absence of evidence the court of public opinion will convict the separatists. I've also seen you repeatedly claim that there is no way that the Ukrainians would have accidentally shot it down: I would direct you to Iran air 655.

          It seems to me that you are criticising everyone who considers the possibility that this was not the separatists. Great neutrality.


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          Or any of these cases. It isn't uncommon, although in more recent years it has. In aprticular, Korean 007, somewhat interesting case, SU15s alongside the 747 claimed they couldn't see the top and bottom flashing lights indicating it as civilian, and to this day the pilots maintain that.
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          (Original post by DaveSmith99)
          There isn't no way it was the Ukrainian Government, it's just incredibly unlikely, and good journalism isn't widely speculating on incredibly unlikely events.

          That's still not a real motive, the risks of the world discovering what they did far outweigh any menial gains that they get from the world thinking it was the separatists.

          As for the Iran air 655 point, I guess we have to start widely speculating that it was the Russian military as well then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...nes_Flight_007
          People have already been quite rightly speculating that it was the Russian military. And to be honest the only thing the media has been doing has been wildly speculating about how the separatists did it.

          And yes it is a real motive. I think you are vastly overestimating the probability that we ever find out what really happened.

          I just think you seem incredibly biased in this. You've been brainwashed by the western media.


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          (Original post by tehFrance)
          Why are you so afraid to debate, is it because your two years as an International Relations student has actually taught you **** all about Russia, the economy and how it works so your opinion on it is rather skewed in favour of saying something as if it's fact without backing it up when asked?

          Shame, I thought that as you'd done IR we'd be able to have a good debate alas your university has let you down, you should ask for your money back if you're incapable of debate.
          Because there is no point in debating with someone like you. Now on your bike mate ...
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            (Original post by Monsieur Gamma)
            Because there is no point in debating with someone like you. Now on your bike mate ...
            No point in debating with someone that knows the country, system, people and how it works? Yeah that makes sense :lol:
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            Can people in the know comment on an important point please. This BUK system - would it have to come with Russian technicians to operate it? Presumably it's quite a complicated system?

            I ask, because even if the separatists 'did it' as seems most likely, isn't it also highly likely that it would have been Russian soldiers who staff the missile battery actually pressing the button?
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            (Original post by DaveSmith99)
            There isn't no way it was the Ukrainian Government, it's just incredibly unlikely, and good journalism isn't widely speculating on incredibly unlikely events.

            That's still not a real motive, the risks of the world discovering what they did far outweigh any menial gains that they get from the world thinking it was the separatists.

            As for the Iran air 655 point, I guess we have to start widely speculating that it was the Russian military as well then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_...nes_Flight_007
            Or the SPLA , or the French, , or Zimabwe who have a history of doing it, or Angola, Japan, A bunch of people in western Africa, Israel, Somalia, Tamils, Congo, oh, Israel have a history too, more Soviets, and Japan again, three lots by the soviets now, Pakistan, Bulgaria, the Dutch, China, Germany, Iraq (first successful landing without hydraulics in a modern plane, damn fine flying), Gerogia.

            I don't think you understood the argument. It was that it is possible that the Ukrainian "government" accidentally shot it down and not just the separatists. And just because you haven't done it before mean you never will, most of those cases are a first time for the belligerent.
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            (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
            Can people in the know comment on an important point please. This BUK system - would it have to come with Russian technicians to operate it? Presumably it's quite a complicated system?

            I ask, because even if the separatists 'did it' as seems most likely, isn't it also highly likely that it would have been Russian soldiers who staff the missile battery actually pressing the button?
            Stop trying to find some way to pin it on the Russians. One could find out online how to operate it, or one of the separatists may even have experience having previously been in the military. It also probably isn't as complex as you make it out to be.
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            (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
            Can people in the know comment on an important point please. This BUK system - would it have to come with Russian technicians to operate it? Presumably it's quite a complicated system?

            I ask, because even if the separatists 'did it' as seems most likely, isn't it also highly likely that it would have been Russian soldiers who staff the missile battery actually pressing the button?
            Not necessarily. The Ukrainians have access to the same system being an ex Soviet Republic. So it could be a Russian separatist or a Ukrainian.

            Having said that, the area of the crash and the recordings demonstrate that is was probably a bunged Russian operation.

            Have no technical experience but from what I understand the level of experience required to operate one of the machines is not incredibly high and the Russian separatists recently captured one. All they know is something comes on radar. It probably explains how they ****ed it up so badly.
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            (Original post by Jammy Duel)
            Stop trying to find some way to pin it on the Russians. One could find out online how to operate it, or one of the separatists may even have experience having previously been in the military. It also probably isn't as complex as you make it out to be.
            The Ukrainian army don't control the area the missile was fired from and the Russians do, so it's a bit of a no-brainer I'm afraid. RT are banging the drum for it being Ukraine, but it won't wash.
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            (Original post by DorianGrayism)
            Not necessarily. The Ukrainians have access to the same system being an ex Soviet Republic. So it could be a Russian separatist or a Ukrainian.

            Having said that, the area of the crash and the recordings demonstrate that is was probably a bunged Russian operation.

            Have no technical experience but from what I understand the level of experience required to operate one of the machines is not incredibly high and the Russian separatists recently captured one. All they know is something comes on radar. It probably explains how they ****ed it up so badly.
            It doesn't sound at all straightforward judging from Wikipedia.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

            It also sounds as if it requires the presence of a Russian air defence brigade.
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            (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
            The Ukrainian army don't control the area the missile was fired from and the Russians do, so it's a bit of a no-brainer I'm afraid. RT are banging the drum for it being Ukraine, but it won't wash.
            You do realise that these missiles can go in directions other than straight up? And you do also realise that just because you can draw a front line on the map doesn't mean that all forces are on their side of the line? You also have to remember that thing called momentum, if that plane is travelling at 500mph+ at 30,000ft+ it isn't going to land directly below where it was hit, so you have to either work out where it was or get the flight data recorder to find out where.
            The only reason it won't wash is because they have no reason to fire anything unless it's to frame the separatists, not because it's impossible.
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            (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
            It doesn't sound at all straightforward judging from Wikipedia.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

            It also sounds as if it requires the presence of a Russian air defence brigade.
            If a weapon is hard to use it's poorly designed. Ideally, what you want, is for anybody to be able to climb inside and be able to use it in about 5 minutes, if that. Wikipedia can make the simplest of things seem complex.
           
           
           
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