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    3-2-1- Grammar nazi appears :P
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    "most muslims aren't like that"? a 2011 UK poll suggested that 100% of muslims asked think homosexuality is "unacceptable" - and 75% of them thought people should be criminalised for insulting the prophet muhammad...and 50% thought gay people should be jailed. it's hard to not generalise with figures like those
    LOL i suggest you dont believe statistics that say "100% of people think X"

    It's like when dictators have elections and get 100% of the votes!

    Don't misuse science to perpetuate bigotry. Do you even know how to assess if a poll is reliable? Come on.

    If you're so into this 'statistic', what was their sample size? Please send me a link so I can evaluate it.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    this is proof that the problem is extremists taking the quran and interpreting it in their own, evil way, and not Islam

    this also does not condone rape anywhere

    read what this passage ACTUALLY MEANS here: http://www.islamic.org.uk/I4wm/sexual.htm
    it is not clear why this childish attempt at justifying slavery and sex with slaves has struck you as a valid interpretation of what the Quranic verse ACTUALLY MEANS (and even in capital letters, by Jove)

    the problem is not extremists interpreting the Quran : it is both the extremists and the Quran at the same time

    if the texts (Quran, ahadith etc) did not contain so many violent, hateful statements, it would not be so easy to interpret them in a violent, hateful way and to convince people so easily

    yes, on the other hand - with some effort and mental gymnastics -, you can interpret away, contextualise, retranslate etc and make Islam compatible with modernity and even with democratic values, parliament, equality of all citizens etc

    even much easier, you can simply ignore the violence and blatant discrimination (of women, unbelievers, apostates, homosexuals etc etc) and claim "that was then ,and now is now"

    however, this is an effort for Muslims to do : I don't see why non-Muslims should take sides in this dispute, and say that either "literalists" or "reformers" are right

    of course that political expediency would advise us to support the "reformers", but as far as non-Muslims are concerned, both groups are wrong : the Quran, quite simply, is not the word of God, and Muhammad was not his prophet

    so, debating the exact interpretation of Quranic verses, or trying to reconstruct what Muhammad allegedly said or not, is (for non-Muslims) pointless : we leave this to Muslims, and then judge the tree (Islam) by its fruits (Islamic history, societies inspired by Islam, behaviour of Muslims etc etc)

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    it is not clear why this childish attempt at justifying slavery and sex with slaves has struck you as a valid interpretation of what the Quranic verse ACTUALLY MEANS (and even in capital letters, by Jove)

    the problem is not extremists interpreting the Quran : it is both the extremists and the Quran at the same time

    if the texts (Quran, ahadith etc) did not contain so many violent, hateful statements, it would not be so easy to interpret them in a violent, hateful way and to convince people so easily

    yes, on the other hand - with some effort and mental gymnastics -, you can interpret away, contextualise, retranslate etc and make Islam compatible with modernity and even with democratic values, parliament, equality of all citizens etc

    even much easier, you can simply ignore the violence and blatant discrimination (of women, unbelievers, apostates, homosexuals etc etc) and claim "that was then ,and now is now"

    however, this is an effort for Muslims to do : I don't see why non-Muslims should take parts in this dispute, and say that either "literalists" or "reformers" are right

    of course that political expediency would advise us to support the "reformers", but as far as non-Muslims are concerned, both groups are wrong : the Quran, quite simply, is not the word of God, and Muhammad was not his prophet

    so, debating the exact interpretation of Quranic verses, or trying to reconstruct what Muhammad allegedly said or not, is (for non-Muslims) pointless : we leave this to Muslims, and then judge the tree (Islam) by its fruits (Islamic history, societies inspired by Islam, behaviour of Muslims etc etc)

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    You just said that the Quran condones rape.

    You linked the first thing the Quran says about sex.

    You embarrassed yourself and you have no idea what it means.
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    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    LOL i suggest you dont believe statistics that say "100% of people think X"

    It's like when dictators have elections and get 100% of the votes!

    Don't misuse science to perpetuate bigotry. Do you even know how to assess if a poll is reliable? Come on.

    If you're so into this 'statistic', what was their sample size? Please send me a link so I can evaluate it.
    I've actually already answered to this back and forth with frankie
    I said "it's something like 90%" and they said "85%", to which I said "seeing as the poll was 100% for 500 muslims, I strongly doubt it's anything less than 90"
    so read back what I've said on this very thread page
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    (Original post by admonit)
    OK. If your friends also are Arabs then it is unexplainable anomaly.
    tis indeed an unexplainable anomaly
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    (Original post by frankielogue)
    No, they don’t treat gay people differently to straight people. They just view the institution of marriage differently.
    Unless they also oppose marriage between straight couples, they absolutely do treat gay people differently!
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    (Original post by frankielogue)
    I’m trying to account for young muslims, who are generally more accepting. The figure is probably around 85% tbh
    Several surveys have shown that younger Muslims often hold more conservative views than older generations, especially in the more contraversial areas.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Unless they also oppose marriage between straight couples, they absolutely do treat gay people differently!
    No, as in they are fine with it being legal, but personally they oppose it, as they personally think that marriage is one man and one woman. I, for example, think abortion should be legal but I personally oppose it. In day-to-day life, they treat gay people with the same respect they treat straight people with
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Several surveys have shown that younger Muslims often hold more conservative views than older generations, especially in the more contraversial areas.
    Perhaps they do in Islamic strongholds and places where Islam runs rampant, but in the areas where there are more non-muslims then there are muslims, I’ve seen one or two anti-gay muslims.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    You just said that the Quran condones rape.
    did I ? where exactly ?

    well, come to think of it, the Quran does condone sex with captive slave women ; who, just like minors, are not in a position to give a valid consent to sex. So, yes, this is technically rape

    thanks for reminding us this interesting fact

    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    You linked the first thing the Quran says about sex.
    I linked nothing at all. You linked that childish apologetics page

    But , no problem, dear friend : whatever floats your boat

    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    You embarrassed yourself and you have no idea what it means.
    oh, dear me... what a disgrace... I will cry

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    We need to drive Muslims to the sea

    **** these people I don't care if they're babies, we should think about our futures and we don't have one as long as we allow these people coming here.
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    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    LOL i suggest you dont believe statistics that say "100% of people think X"

    It's like when dictators have elections and get 100% of the votes!

    Don't misuse science to perpetuate bigotry. Do you even know how to assess if a poll is reliable? Come on.

    If you're so into this 'statistic', what was their sample size? Please send me a link so I can evaluate it.
    No poll would say "100% think x", unless the question was somethiung like..."As a Muslim, do you believe in the existence of Allah?" And even then, it would still be unlikely due to statistical variables built into the survey criteria.

    What sample size do you consider to be sufficient to accurately represent the views of a population of 2 million, to a confidence of 95% and an margin of error of 3?
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    I wonder what the people in Belgium who just escaped another crazed muslim trying to murder them with a machete yelling allah akbar have to say about this ridiculous thread.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    You just said that the Quran condones rape.
    The only way that you can claim that the Quran does not condone rape is to either:
    1. Reject the consensus of international law that a captive cannot give free or informed consent to sex (ie. sex with slaves or captives is always rape), or
    2. Reject the universal infallibility and immutability of the Quran.

    Non-Muslims take option 2.
    The majority of Muslims cannot do this as they believe/are told that it is an act of kufr and would render them apostate. So they take option 1.
    The measure of how far along the path to enlightenment Islam is will be the number of Muslims taking option 2.
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    (Original post by frankielogue)
    No, as in they are fine with it being legal, but personally they oppose it, as they personally think that marriage is one man and one woman. I, for example, think abortion should be legal but I personally oppose it. In day-to-day life, they treat gay people with the same respect they treat straight people with
    They may not openly treat gay people differently, but personally they think that they do not deserve the same treatment as straight couples. Therefore they do treat them differently.

    A racist who does not make racist comments or racist attacks is still a racist if they believe that people should be judged by their race or colour rather that personal attributes.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    "most muslims aren't like that"? a 2011 UK poll suggested that 100% of muslims asked think homosexuality is "unacceptable" - and 75% of them thought people should be criminalised for insulting the prophet muhammad...and 50% thought gay people should be jailed. it's hard to not generalise with figures like those
    you literally pulled those statistics out of your ass, dont think by you putting in dates and percentages that your argument becomes stronger - this isn't some year 9 debating club. you obviously havent met LGBTQ+ muslims because yes, they exist, and yes, they're muslim. explain how 100% of the 1.7 billion muslims think homosexuality is unacceptable and only 50% of them think gay people should be jailed. literally 0 logic.
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    In many many cases they are the one pulling the trigger
    so in your opinion most attacks in the world are committed by muslims?
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    (Original post by ad98)
    you literally pulled those statistics out of your ass, dont think by you putting in dates and percentages that your argument becomes stronger - this isn't some year 9 debating club. you obviously havent met LGBTQ+ muslims because yes, they exist, and yes, they're muslim. explain how 100% of the 1.7 billion muslims think homosexuality is unacceptable and only 50% of them think gay people should be jailed. literally 0 logic.
    it is something like 100% - I wouldn't ever claim it is *literally* 100%
    even the person who was last here arguing with me over that figure admitted that they thought it was at least 85%.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    it is something like 100% - I wouldn't ever claim it is *literally* 100%
    even the person who was last here arguing with me over that figure admitted that they thought it was at least 85%.
    but you did *literally* say that. your entire argument is founded on baseless facts, therefore completely degrading your argument that the majority of muslims are intolerant close-minded bigots. if you want to have a mature and frank discussion be honest, you won't get anywhere with spewing bs.
 
 
 
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