Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Niqab wearer asked to leave restaurant in Germany Watch

    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by HanSoloLuck)
    I thought it was otherwise, can you provide evidence for this ?
    Depends on the country. UK is about 85% stunned.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Yes I did. I'm guessing you haven't though, unless you think it's ok that 93% of Muslims in South East Asia think that women should obey their husbands, or that only 40% of Muslims in sub-saharan Africa and only 53% in the Middle-East believe that women should have the right to choose whether they wear the veil.

    PS: that isn't a meme, it's a graphic visualisation of the data which can be found there. The actual full report can be found here: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/0...ull-report.pdf
    south east asia generally has a cultural problem where women are married young, expected to only be a mother etc so its not surprising. it would be same for hindus in that area.
    Egypt, Jordon, Iraq and Afghanistan. Egypt the view would be changed by now I think, while Jordon Iraq and Afghanistan are generally more conservative countries. and that meme is not reflective of the statistics, it is also portrayed in a bad light obviously for right wing appeasement. sharia has many differing interpretation's, and the study clearly shows.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    Because if a man or woman wish to follow their religious beliefs which instruct them to be modest they have every right to do so. You cannot dictate their religion to them, you can claim it is oppressive, blah. But at the end of the day, it is their choice, their views, and their rights.
    But you see, the bits in bold are contradictory. If they are instructed to do something by their religion, then it is not a free choice!

    This is just like the predestination/free will argument, where religionists also maintain two inherently contradictory positions but refuse to accept it because to do so would highlight an inherent contradiction in their faith.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    south east asia generally has a cultural problem where women are married young, expected to only be a mother etc so its not surprising. it would be same for hindus in that area.
    Egypt, Jordon, Iraq and Afghanistan. Egypt the view would be changed by now I think, while Jordon Iraq and Afghanistan are generally more conservative countries.
    This is all just conjecture. Moreover, if you actually looked at the study, you would see misogyny (or at least thinking that women should obey their husbands) is clearly heavily prevalent with Muslims in all areas except Europe.

    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    and that meme is not reflective of the statistics, it is also portrayed in a bad light obviously for right wing appeasement. sharia has many differing interpretation's, and the study clearly shows.
    TIL that being against ultra-conservative values is "right-wing". Also, could you demonstrate how that picture in any way twists the data to make it look worse? Genuinely curious.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    if someone wishes to they can. your identity doesn't have to be displayed 24/7. if it intimidates you that's your fault, if you find it oppressive that's your view. but don't ban or dictate women over what they should or should not wear.
    It's called integration.. If I go to a foreign country, I have to adapt to their dress code etc, so why does anyone else coming somewhere else should get exemptions? Plus, the business owner had all the rights to ask her to leave since it's his business.

    What's the point to go live somewhere else if you're not going to integrate?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    Depends on the country. UK is about 85% stunned.
    This only accounts for a tiny minority of the Muslim population operating abattoirs in a country were it is illegal not to stun, and is exactly the evidence that was provided by another poster in defense/support of the statement that 'Halal meat is stunned'.

    In a Muslim majority country would we expect to see the same adherence to animal well being, what I would need to see is (to even begin to accept the statement above) would be Halal Certification authorities operating outside of countries where they are not bound by non-Muslim laws enforcing the same standards for animal welfare.

    I don't think it an unreasonable request if someone wished to substantiate the claim made.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Josb)
    No, it is not the same.

    "You can wear everything except this" "You can only wear this".
    Why is it so hard for some people to grasp this very, very simple concept.

    JFTR, I am not in favour of banning the niqab/burqa - just requiring their removal in those situations where any other face covering must be removed.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    This imbecile can't see its a woman's right to choose. This is not Saudi Arabia where women MUST wear the burka and niqab. Women have free will here.
    But many Muslims (including you?) have stated that it is a religious requirement. If it is, then devout adherents of that religion cannot freely choose to not wear it, by definition!

    It really isn't a very difficult concept.

    Allah: "You must wear this"
    Muslimah: "Sure, but only because I want to, not because you are telling me to"

    If it is not a religious requirement, then what the **** is all the fuss about?
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    really? so he can ban jewish people, Christian people, black people, brown people etc?
    In this context, if they refused to remove their masks, then yes.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    http://tellmamauk.org/category/far-right-groups/
    it is hypocritical because you want to ban once certain hateful ideology but not another. The far right is growing and more people probably identify with the far right then Muslims do with is is
    Ah yes, TellMAMA. The group that classifies a sign that said "Halal is barbaric" as an "Islamophobic atack".
    I'm sure they mean well.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    many nuns wear the outfit similar to a burka.
    But they don't cover the face, which was the reason for the owner refusing to serve the woman.

    the niqab is not a security threat because the majority of women who wear it are not extremists,
    The knife is not a security threat because the majority of knife users are not stabbists.

    BTW, I don't think that the burqa/niqab is generally a security threat, I'm just demonstrating the inconsistency of your argument.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    You cant find out the support rates by adding them up like that. -_-
    And what polls? evidence? hopefully not ones that have al
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a6745206.html
    ready been denounced.
    The issue with that poll was not the poll itself, but the way the results were portayed by the Sun.
    And there are many that conclusively show that there is a sizable minority of UK Muslims who support extremism. In some countries, they are in the majority.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    Moreover, Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptable.
    Muslims cherry-picking interpretations of Islam to suit their agenda?
    Who would have thought it?

    Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam. Asked specifically about suicide bombing, clear majorities in most countries say such acts are rarely or never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...iety-overview/
    But in the context of a population of 1.6 billion, those minorities amount to over 100 million. That's an awful lot of people who support ISIS, think that suicide bombings of civilian targets are justified, etc!
    Personally, I think that deliberately targetting civilians is never justified, even if it results in the deaths of known terrorist leaders. I guess that must just be my decadent kaffir morality showing through.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    many nuns wear the outfit similar to a burka. the niqab is not a security threat because the majority of women who wear it are not extremists, there has not been one terrorist attack by a male wearing a burka. if a male passes security at the airport while wearing a burka it is obviously security fault, as this guy should've been under security threat.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...icle-1.2288989

    It'll happen again.

    Sort of shot yourself in the foot with that one. One that stands out is Turkey with 8% of the population supporting ISIS. A mere 6 million from a country that wants to join the EU. Frightening!
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    Why is my absolute and heartfelt, spirit-uplifting passion for riding motorbikes not relevant, but a quasi-religious cultural tradition is?

    So if it is optional, why all the fuss when people are asked to remove it in certain situations?
    And surely you are aware that some madhabs regard it as compulsory?
    I think this is where my opinion lies tbh.

    The whole circle just goes around in circles because some people demand special treatment for their religious habits. The way I see is
    If YOU want to cover your face = support anybody covering their face (including balaclavas, niqabs, motorcycle helmets, buffs). If YOU feel uncomfortable with other people covering their faces = support the banning of all forms of face covering.
    Picking "well, we should let these people do it but not these" is just ridiculous. The hypocrisy burns
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    But you see, the bits in bold are contradictory. If they are instructed to do something by their religion, then it is not a free choice!

    This is just like the predestination/free will argument, where religionists also maintain two inherently contradictory positions but refuse to accept it because to do so would highlight an inherent contradiction in their faith.
    You do know your being ridiculous? People choose to follow their religion, religion is not a man telling them they have to do this. You cannot ban religion. And to follow religion and its principles is a free choice, people make up their mind and religion influences them, it is not a man forcing them to wear this or not wear that.

    No, religion is a idea, a belief system, just like atheism. Atheists choose not to believe, muslims choose to believe in islam.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    You do know your being ridiculous? People choose to follow their religion, religion is not a man telling them they have to do this.
    :rofl:
    Have you actually read the Quran!?!

    You cannot ban religion.
    And neither should we try.
    Increased levels of education, welfare and living standards will eventually lead to eligion being sidelined as an irrelevance. As it is to most northern Europeans.

    And to follow religion and its principles is a free choice, people make up their mind and religion influences them,
    We know that this simply isn't true. The vast majority follow a religion because they are indoctrinated in childhood, and that indoctrination is hard to break, especially when the society you live in reinforces that indoctrination on a daily basis. This is why so few people change their religion on the basis of reasoned argument - unless it is to discard religion altogether.

    it is not a man forcing them to wear this or not wear that.
    So, there is no instruction from Allah or Muhammad to cover the face?
    In which case, it is not a religious requirement. It is simply a piece of clothing, no different to a balaclava.

    No, religion is a idea, a belief system, just like atheism. Atheists choose not to believe, muslims choose to believe in islam.
    But atheists do not believe that they will be punished for not being an atheist. That is a big difference. It introduces the concept of coercion.

    Example.
    A mugger holds a knife to your throat and says "I would like you to give me all your money, if you don't mind, but if you don't I will stab you in the neck".
    If you give him your money, was it your "free choice" to do so?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KingBradly)
    This is all just conjecture. Moreover, if you actually looked at the study, you would see misogyny (or at least thinking that women should obey their husbands) is clearly heavily prevalent with Muslims in all areas except Europe.
    'obey' in islam: means to be a good wife and a good husband
    However, the obedience that is obligatory on the wife to her husband is not blind obedience or obedience without restrictions, conditions or limits. Rather, it is the obedience of the righteous wife to the righteous and pious husband whose personality she trusts and believes in his sincerity and righteousness. Obedience that is based on consultation and mutual understanding promotes the entity of the family and its conditions and reinforces its foundations and strength. The spouses are advised to consult each other with regard to all family affairs. Indeed, there is no consultant better than a faithful and truthful wife. She supports her husband, guides him with her emotions, protects him with her instinct and provides him with her opinion. The Messenger of Allah, , would consult his wives and follow their opinion in important matters. He consulted his wife, Umm Salamah, may Allah be pleased with her, in a most critical situation. Her consultation and wise opinion were important in putting an end to that crisis and returning matters to normality. Finally, we find that Islam has organized the rights of spouses in such a way that if each of them perfectly fulfills the other's rights, he, as well as those around him, will live in a state of happiness. However, if one of them misuses this right, the marital life will fail as it is a partnership between the spouses. Islam acknowledges the rights of the wife over her husband just as it acknowledges the husband’s rights over his wife. Additionally, it has clarified the duties of each. If both of them follow the instructions and each of them knows his Islamic rights and duties, the family will live happily and will be encompassed by tranquility and the mercy of Allah The Almighty.


    TIL that being against ultra-conservative values is "right-wing". Also, could you demonstrate how that picture in any way twists the data to make it look worse? Genuinely curious.
    'sharia should rule' sharia is subject to many interpretations, and most would disagree with the extreme version. Adultery and leaving islam- actually more related to slandering - criticising in a civilised manner of aspects in islam is not illegal, as islam has many interpretations of certain laws.-and in public, is a deterrence in Islamic law. If you look at the history this would become clear. Most muslims would agree with this because it acts as a deterrence.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ForgetMe)
    It's called integration.. If I go to a foreign country, I have to adapt to their dress code etc, so why does anyone else coming somewhere else should get exemptions? Plus, the business owner had all the rights to ask her to leave since it's his business.

    What's the point to go live somewhere else if you're not going to integrate?
    Muslims are well integrated, they have jobs, contribute to society etc. They also have religious freedom which they don't have to abandon to 'integrate' one can practice their religion and contribute to society. A niqab does not stop one from doing so, I know many muslim women who wear the niqab and they go to classes, have jobs etc.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    But many Muslims (including you?) have stated that it is a religious requirement. If it is, then devout adherents of that religion cannot freely choose to not wear it, by definition!

    It really isn't a very difficult concept.

    Allah: "You must wear this"
    Muslimah: "Sure, but only because I want to, not because you are telling me to"

    If it is not a religious requirement, then what the **** is all the fuss about?
    I have not stated it is a religious requirement, I have said some women simply choose to do so because either they see it as a religious requirement or they see it as gaining extra rewards. Muslims who choose to wear it simply because they want to, because they believe it is better to, it is their free will.

    Now you are getting ridiculous, ofcourse muslims obey Allah, muslims do not obey man, only Allah. Allah does not command evil things, only for the best.
 
 
 
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: August 18, 2017
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Break up or unrequited love?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.