Should women earn as much as men? Watch

billyboymccoy
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#321
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#321
Women hold up half the sky.
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WithFlyingColours
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#322
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#322
Why are people still dealing with generalisations when life is about individual circumstances and specifics?
Because the very statistics that claim men are paid more than women are based on generalisations. When dealing with such sweeping claims as men are paid more than women, we deal with generalisations and majorities as opposed to individuals.
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Sk1lLz
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(Original post by anyarian)
Ahh, I see. So what do they pay the rent with whilst pregnant? What do they eat?

If they weren't paid whilst on maternity leave, everyone would just have to pay even higher taxes, so that their rent, food and other basic needs are covered whilst they are pregnant.
Save up. Have you ever heard of that before? :rolleyes:
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Absinth
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(Original post by Elipsis)
I don't have a problem with house husbands, but I personally couldn't stand not being the bread winner for my family. There's no denying that men are stronger and women are more careing and the situation where the woman looks after the children and the man goes out to work plays to this, a man can easily handle a 60 hour week and a woman can look after the children to a far higher degree. Of course this is a generalisation though. You seem to think that because men are earning money they have some how shirked their responsibility which isn't the case. It just makes sense for the person with the most earning power to go out and work. As i've said before women are also compelled by their hormones to look after children to a far greater degree than males, the main way a man can think to look after his children is to provide. It's the perfect combination.
Nah. I don't think strength plays a role in how much you earn anymore (not at the 'top' earning jobs anyway). Men aren't hunters in this day and age and just work with their brains most of the time. Women are more caring? I think that comes about through social conditioning and women spending more time with the child more than anything 'biological'. I never said that men earning money = 'shirking responsibility' and do not think it either. A woman can easily handle a 60 hour week, it's not exactly as if a lot of these stressful jobs involve a lot of physical strength, just mental strength.
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SarahhhD
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(Original post by Misogynist)
Proof? It's more like the opposite. The best stylists, cooks and hairdressers are men.
Some of the best politicians are woman.
For example the most powerful speach made over the 42 day detention period was made by a Woman, she was Fab.
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Reblet
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
The female teachers definetly seem biased towards the education of the girls and help them more. I think men are smarter than women and persue the scince, engineering and mathematics based subjects.
I refuse to listen to a man spouting about the intelligence of males whilst consistently mis-spelling "pursue" and "definitely" and cannot grasp the concept of the apostrophe!

Men are drawn to sciences more than women for whatever reason (hard facts, chances to tinker around with chemicals and suchlike etc.) and careers in this area do earn more money. This is NOT because they are harder or more worthwhile but because they are less popular generally and thus people need more monetary encouragement to take that career path. Some girls do take this career path but as it is a male-dominated environment clearly women don't feel as comfortable going into it. Similarly some men fear going for more "artsy" courses as they will be mocked (who hasn't heard jokes about boys who do English or drama?).

The theme of women and pregnancy seems so ingrained in this thread that I feel the need once again to point out that not all women want to waste their lives for the sake of the next generation. It takes two people to make a baby therefore it should take two people to bring it up. No man should assume his wife will give up her life and career for their child. Neither should companies assume all women will want children. I wonder whether the difference in pay directly matches the pay for maternity leave? I highly doubt it. Women are not here just to reproduce. Amazingly enough we want careers but are willing to sacrifice some comfort and some of our career goals for children as this is what society expects (yes it does, read back over the whole thread and see how often it is mentioned).

Finally I will address this ridiculous farcical notion that men out-perform women in the workplace. I fail to see any statistics provided to back up this point. Men and women level out at degree level and are on equal standing leaving university so why would they suddenly stop equalling men in the workplace? Women do not out-perform men, men do not out-perform women and I will hold this view until someone provides some categorical evidence to the contrary. Yes, they do. However, I will agree that men out-perform women in ONE field; physical labour. Obviously men are physically stronger than women, nobody could dispute there. So in construction/manual work/sport I do think men should be paid a higher wage as they contribute more than women. However, to generalise this to all workplaces would be ridiculous.

So far OP you have failed to back up your points effectively, stick to the argument and avoid misogynist commentary. The only points I have seen with statistical evidence and comprehensive arguments behind them belong to withflyingcolours.
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anyarian
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(Original post by Sk1lLz)
Save up. Have you ever heard of that before? :rolleyes:
It's possible to become pregnant accidentally.
Also, won't it take rather a long time to save up, if they get paid less to start with?
By which time they might have lower fertility, and then have to get IVF- which is sometimes paid for by the NHS, so it'll end up costing even more?
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Bornstubborn
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Maybe this will shed some light on why men do harder subjects and do better at work....


'Men cleverer than women' claim

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4183166.stm
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anyarian
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
You are Armenian?
no... really really curious as to why you thought i was armenian?
i don't think anyone ever though i was armenian before... I'm English. (well, quarter english, quarter welsh, half russian) but i've never lived anywhere but England in my life, i'm very "english" (stereotypically. I drink tea, and Pimms, and i sometimes play croquet. though actually that sounds more french than english, looking at the spelling, now i come to think of it.)

Call me totally ignorant (which i sort of am, in this respect) but do Armenians come from a place called armenia? or is the country called something entirely different? (i mean, like people from Holland are Dutch- they sound nothing alike). And where is this country that may or may not be called Armenia?

A lot of my friends read The Sun, and take it pretty seriously. It saddens me.
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Bornstubborn
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(Original post by anyarian)
no... really really curious as to why you thought i was armenian?
i don't think anyone ever though i was armenian before... I'm English. (well, quarter english, quarter welsh, half russian) but i've never lived anywhere but England in my life, i'm very "english" (stereotypically. I drink tea, and Pimms, and i sometimes play croquet. though actually that sounds more french than english, looking at the spelling, now i come to think of it.)

Call me totally ignorant (which i sort of am, in this respect) but do Armenians come from a place called armenia? or is the country called something entirely different? (i mean, like people from Holland are Dutch- they sound nothing alike). And where is this country that may or may not be called Armenia?

A lot of my friends read The Sun, and take it pretty seriously. It saddens me.
Armenians have names like anyarian.

Armenians are from Armenia, this country is by the caspian sea and close to southern Russia.
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Reblet
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Bornstubborn this does not support your argument in any way. Especially as IQ tests are consitently called into question as intelligence is not an easily qualified measure. Plus later on it claims that Africans are less intelligent than Caucasians which I think further undermines the claims... Similar to the criticisms of the American SATs tests, IQ tests discriminate in favour of white, middle-class males yet ironically asian women usually outdo all groups. Anyway, asides from the value of this study, it cannot prove that men out-perform women in the workplace. In fact it suggests the opposite:
"The paper will argue that there is evidence that at the same level of IQ, women are able to achieve more than men "possibly because they are more conscientious and better adapted to sustained periods of hard work".
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cuddles x
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#332
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women should earn more x x
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Bornstubborn
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#333
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So i take it you are an expert on the genetic variations in intelligence? I have never heard of asian women out doing all groups, i thought asian men outdo all groups

How can IQ tests favour one group.

I think its clear men out do women in the work place, otherwise women would be at the top giving women the best money and men would be whining about how we make less.
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No Future
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#334
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Yes, so long as their performance is as good as that of a man in a similar position, of course women should be paid equally
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Sk1lLz
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(Original post by anyarian)
It's possible to become pregnant accidentally.
Also, won't it take rather a long time to save up, if they get paid less to start with?
By which time they might have lower fertility, and then have to get IVF- which is sometimes paid for by the NHS, so it'll end up costing even more?
It is possible to become pregnant accidentally, yes. But if you do, it's your fault (not you specifically). I know, they won't like it but it's true.
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anyarian
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
Armenians have names like anyarian.

Armenians are from Armenia, this country is by the caspian sea and close to southern Russia.
Oh I see.
well my name isn't anyarian. it's my nickname. though it is based on my real name. which is actually russian. So i suppose you weren't far off, to be fair. especially as you were going on a nickname.
well, thanks for telling me about Armenians and where they come from.
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The Apprentice
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#337
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men and women sometimes may have the same job title but not be doing the same jobs, where i work we are all under the same title, but its clear that the women get the 'easier' jobs and the men get more pressure from the mgrs and the jobs are WAY more difficult. so to answer your question NO!
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Misogynist
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(Original post by Reblet)
[Blah blah blah]

Finally I will address this ridiculous farcical notion that men out-perform women in the workplace. I fail to see any statistics provided to back up this point. Men and women level out at degree level and are on equal standing leaving university so why would they suddenly stop equalling men in the workplace? Women do not out-perform men, men do not out-perform women and I will hold this view until someone provides some categorical evidence to the contrary. Yes, they do. However, I will agree that men out-perform women in ONE field; physical labour. Obviously men are physically stronger than women, nobody could dispute there. So in construction/manual work/sport I do think men should be paid a higher wage as they contribute more than women. However, to generalise this to all workplaces would be ridiculous.

Here's your proof. Before adulthood, males have a higher IQ than females, and this gap widens as time goes along. I'd specifically recommend reading the 'genius' parts aswell as the portion about Nobel Prize winners.

(Original post by bbc.co.uk)

'Widening gap'


Paul Irwing and Professor Richard Lynn claim the difference grows when the highest IQ levels are considered.

Their research was based on IQ tests given to 80,000 people and a further study of 20,000 students.

Dr Irwing, a senior lecturer in organisational psychology at Manchester University, told the Today programme on BBC Radio Four the study showed that, up to the age of 14, there was no difference between the IQs of boys and girls.

"But beyond that age and into adulthood there is a difference of five points, which is small but it can have important implications," he said.

"This is against a background of women dramatically overtaking men in educational attainment and making very rapid advances in terms of occupational achievement."

The academics used a test which is said to measure "general cognitive ability" - spatial and verbal ability.

As intelligence scores among the study group rose, the academics say they found a widening gap between the sexes.

There were twice as many men with IQ scores of 125, for example, a level said to correspond with people getting first-class degrees.

At scores of 155, associated with genius, there were 5.5 men for every woman.

Nobel prize-winners

Dr Irwing told The Times the differences "may go some way to explaining the greater numbers of men achieving distinctions of various kinds, such as chess grandmasters, Fields medallists for mathematics, Nobel prize-winners and the like".

The paper will argue that there is evidence that at the same level of IQ, women are able to achieve more than men "possibly because they are more conscientious and better adapted to sustained periods of hard work".

His co-author Richard Lynn's previous work on the genetic and environmental influences on intelligence and race has proved controversial.

Prof Lynn, an emeritus professor at the University of Ulster, has argued that people of east Asian origin have higher IQs on average than Europeans, or that those from sub-Saharan Africa have lower IQs than African Americans.

Earlier this year, the president of Harvard University, Lawrence Summers, sparked controversy when he suggested at a seminar that one reason men outperformed women in maths and science was genetics.
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Bornstubborn
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#339
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I wonder if women were to start dominating in the work place and making more money than men what would be the result on men in this society.

I wonder if they would replace womens role, something i find highly unlikely.

Perhaps they would take a greater level of apathy to life and just relax and get high, how would educated women find partners... (something i think would happen)

Perhaps there would be an increase in crime as a means to make money. ( i also think this would happen)

What do you think would be the result?
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Bornstubborn
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#340
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(Original post by anyarian)
Oh I see.
well my name isn't anyarian. it's my nickname. though it is based on my real name. which is actually russian. So i suppose you weren't far off, to be fair. especially as you were going on a nickname.
well, thanks for telling me about Armenians and where they come from.
What is your russian name?
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