The Commons Bar Mk IX - MHoC Chat Thread Watch

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Kittiara
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#3501
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#3501
(Original post by thehistorybore)
I'm sure it will be very good, but I'm afraid that I will almost certainly disagree with it. But I stand for democracy and shall therefore give it a fair read
It is a shame that you will likely disagree with its content, because as new members go, you are excellent! I am sure that every party would open its doors for you. The Tories are fortunate.

(Original post by PetrosAC)
If they fire you, you can come join the Liberals!

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Thanks! You already have a long line of members waiting for a seat, though, I reckon, and I don't want to be at the back of the queue.
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Aph
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#3502
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#3502
(Original post by JoeL1994)
What do you mean?
Money doesn't make it happen people do, if we group together we can do anything.
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KingStannis
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#3503
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#3503
(Original post by Aph)
Who said communism?

1) you are assuming that money is the only possible insensitive.
2) you mean the jobs that people are paid to do due to others laziness?
3) see 1.
That's the only predictable assumption we can make. Try doing mathematics based on assumptions that are individual to each person rather then that proven universal; profit. See how close to reality you come.
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JoeL1994
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#3504
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#3504
(Original post by Aph)
Money doesn't make it happen people do, if we group together we can do anything.
Like forcing others to give up their possessions for a collective benefit?

People own property, we can not encroach on their rights or possessions without their permission unless it is a last resort.
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Aph
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#3505
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(Original post by KingStannis)
That's the only predictable assumption we can make. Trying doing mathematics based on assumptions that are individual to each person rather then that proven universal; profit. See how close to reality you come.
Sorry what?
(Original post by JoeL1994)
Like forcing others to give up their possessions for a collective benefit?

People own property, we can not encroach on their rights or possessions without their permission unless it is a last resort.
Well I don't like private property only personal possessions... And more like them willingly giving it up.
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JoeL1994
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#3506
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#3506
(Original post by Aph)
Well I don't like private property only personal possessions... And more like them willingly giving it up.
Why would someone willingly give it up though.

If you've worked your ******** off to earn it, to pay for it, to maintain it - why should you be forced to give it up for someone that hasn't contributed. Collectivism doesn't work because not everyone can/will put in. The only success of collectivism is the NHS and even that is failing right now.
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KingStannis
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#3507
(Original post by Aph)
Sorry what?

Well I don't like private property only personal possessions... And more like them willingly giving it up.
It's a simple point. You cannot make economic equations based on unpredictable phenomena and expect to get results that correspond to reality.

As to your next point about liking private possessions but hating private property, I shall have to repeat your own words: sorry, what?
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thehistorybore
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#3508
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#3508
(Original post by Aph)
People do...

No, it's never too late to turn back and have a new start.
If you can provide a viable alternative that would not involve serious changes to the way in which people live their lives, this argument may hold water. However, it seems unnecessary when capitalism and the trade of money is the most efficient method that is used.
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KingStannis
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#3509
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#3509
(Original post by JoeL1994)
Why would someone willingly give it up though.

If you've worked your ******** off to earn it, to pay for it, to maintain it - why should you be forced to give it up for someone that hasn't contributed. Collectivism doesn't work because not everyone can/will put in. The only success of collectivism is the NHS and even that is failing right now.
So collectived education shouldn't exist?
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Aph
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(Original post by KingStannis)
It's a simple point. You cannot make economic equations based on unpredictable phenomena and expect to get results that correspond to reality.

As to your next point about liking private possessions but hating private property, I shall have to repeat your own words: sorry, what?
look up aph vs the world, I go though my arguments there

(Original post by JoeL1994)
Why would someone willingly give it up though.

If you've worked your ******** off to earn it, to pay for it, to maintain it - why should you be forced to give it up for someone that hasn't contributed. Collectivism doesn't work because not everyone can/will put in. The only success of collectivism is the NHS and even that is failing right now.
i don't know some people actually care?

the NHS is failing because it's being sold, any collectivism needs to be done on a global level.
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thehistorybore
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#3511
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#3511
(Original post by Kittiara)
It is a shame that you will likely disagree with its content, because as new members go, you are excellent! I am sure that every party would open its doors for you. The Tories are fortunate.
Thank you! You're very kind
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That Bearded Man
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#3512
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#3512
Pretty brutal for Milliband, Cameron got off very lightly, didn't really answer any of the questions, but came off quite well and hasn't said anything that has put people off.

Clegg as always came across well, but ultimately, gave no more reassurances about a coalition.

Milliband impressed me again, stood by the unpopular option (EU) - for me, he gets better. He really should have should have said about hindsight regarding spending, but that would always have ended badly. Apparently the blond woman met Osbourne afterwards, audience very vocal against Milliband.
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bun
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#3513
(Original post by Kittiara)
as new members go, you are excellent! I am sure that every party would open its doors for you. The Tories are fortunate.
He is indeed, and we certainly are fortunate to have him. As we are several of our new members who are active in the subforum. We have a strong future. But that's because the best party attracts the best new members

As honorary bouncer, I suggest we all stop drinking so we can be in the right state of mind to scrutinise the manifestos.
Also, as I'm confident of a Tory majority, I don't want to have an even bigger blackhole to plug having to pay for all these drinks! It'll be bad enough getting an IRL deficit with the great-repeal.
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Aph
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#3514
(Original post by thehistorybore)
If you can provide a viable alternative that would not involve serious changes to the way in which people live their lives, this argument may hold water. However, it seems unnecessary when capitalism and the trade of money is the most efficient method that is used.
But capitalism has too many failing. I'm not saying I have the answer but I'm saying that we don't have the answer yet.
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thehistorybore
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(Original post by bun)
He is indeed, and we certainly are fortunate to have him. As we are several of our new members who are active in the subforum. We have a strong future. But that's because the best party attracts the best new members

As honorary bouncer, I suggest we all stop drinking so we can be in the right state of mind to scrutinise the manifestos.
Also, as I'm confident of a Tory majority, I don't want to have an even bigger blackhole to plug having to pay for all these drinks! It'll be bad enough getting an IRL deficit with the great-repeal.
With my last drop of Thatchers, I say cheers to that!
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thehistorybore
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(Original post by Aph)
But capitalism has too many failing. I'm not saying I have the answer but I'm saying that we don't have the answer yet.
Well in the interim, do you accept that capitalism is presently the most viable option?
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JoeL1994
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#3517
(Original post by KingStannis)
So collectived education shouldn't exist?
I wouldn't see education as collectivist while there's still private/independent/faith schools.

(Original post by Aph)
i don't know some people actually care?

the NHS is failing because it's being sold, any collectivism needs to be done on a global level.

Some
people care. Unless everybody does, it's irrelevant.

The NHS isn't being sold, parts of it are. As long as it's being sold off to the right people, why not? Healthcare organisations are all subject to the same inspections/regulation.
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Kittiara
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#3518
(Original post by bun)
He is indeed, and we certainly are fortunate to have him. As we are several of our new members who are active in the subforum. We have a strong future. But that's because the best party attracts the best new members

As honorary bouncer, I suggest we all stop drinking so we can be in the right state of mind to scrutinise the manifestos.
Also, as I'm confident of a Tory majority, I don't want to have an even bigger blackhole to plug having to pay for all these drinks! It'll be bad enough getting an IRL deficit with the great-repeal.
Stop drinking? Nuh uh! *hugs Diet Coke* I may have to drink the stronger stuff soon... full sugar Coke!
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Aph
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#3519
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(Original post by thehistorybore)
Well in the interim, do you accept that capitalism is presently the most viable option?
Not really, not without massive reform.
(Original post by JoeL1994)
I wouldn't see education as collectivist while there's still private/independent/faith schools.



Some
people care. Unless everybody does, it's irrelevant.

The NHS isn't being sold, parts of it are. As long as it's being sold off to the right people, why not? Healthcare organisations are all subject to the same inspections/regulation.
Maybe that it's immoral to make money from vital services.
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bun
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(Original post by That Bearded Man)
Pretty brutal for Milliband, Cameron got off very lightly, didn't really answer any of the questions, but came off quite well and hasn't said anything that has put people off.

Clegg as always came across well, but ultimately, gave no more reassurances about a coalition.

Milliband impressed me again, stood by the unpopular option (EU) - for me, he gets better. He really should have should have said about hindsight regarding spending, but that would always have ended badly. Apparently the blond woman met Osbourne afterwards, audience very vocal against Milliband.
Obviously we'll disagree because of the politics, but I thought Clegg came out on top there. Handled himself well, was quite open, honest and made several good points.
Cameron got a fair amount of flak too, but he handled it better than Miliband. That said, I think Cameron was quite weak on the waiting times stuff.

Left wing audience was won over by Cameron somewhat I think, and whilst Miliband improved as he got into it, I think it's telling that a Yorkshire, predominantly left wing audience was quick to criticise him. He's got his work cut out, I think.
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