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    • #14
    #14

    (Original post by DanielleT192)
    To a certain extent, I agree with both of your arguments. Obviously people feel that there's a release from harming themselves and that is how they cope with their stability/their impacted life.

    However, I think culture has some sort of influence, even if people are not aware of it. It's kind of like alcoholism - people abuse alcohol as a way of releasing their anxienties or they're generally depressed and becomes a vicious circle. The same applies to smoking and drugs.

    The main point I think that this guy is trying to make is that people are surrounded by the knowledge that people do self harm and they find this is a way of dealing with their stresses or are in crappy situations. This could lead people into the way of thinking that self harming is a way of dealing with their problems.

    You hear about depression a lot more in today's society than you have probably in later years. I don't know whether it is because people kept things hidden behind closed doors and this has always been the case, but there's definitely an increase in self harming - even some of my friends have done this, so maybe this is subconciously affecting the thoughts that people have with dealing with feelings too hard to deal with. Interesting topic.
    I do understand where you're coming from, as self harm has been adopted by various groups in recent times. The point I'm trying to make is that with alcohol, drugs and smoking there is a definite element of social influence in it. Most people start these things with others and this then can develop into negative behaviour for whatever reason. But with self harm, it's something a lot of people don't share with others. Whereas alcohol, drugs and smoking are promoted by many, self harm is looked down on by most in our society. If it is a behaviour looked down on, it's less likely that people will do it because of cultural influence; I know I've grown up with people saying self harm is stupid, ridiculous, attention seeking etc. That's not something people would wish to be classed as by others. Yes we know that others self harm, but this is rarely portrayed in a positive light and so it's not logical that it would be replicated, unless someone was desperate for help or release.

    I think it is an interesting topic, and I'm not really arguing that there is no social influence whatsoever but I feel that Unoriginal- made his point rather insensitively in his first post. He said it's not a mental illness (which it isn't, it's a coping mechanism) but to suggest it is wholly social with no psychological influence is going too far I think.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    I do understand where you're coming from, as self harm has been adopted by various groups in recent times. The point I'm trying to make is that with alcohol, drugs and smoking there is a definite element of social influence in it. Most people start these things with others and this then can develop into negative behaviour for whatever reason. But with self harm, it's something a lot of people don't share with others. Whereas alcohol, drugs and smoking are promoted by many, self harm is looked down on by most in our society. If it is a behaviour looked down on, it's less likely that people will do it because of cultural influence; I know I've grown up with people saying self harm is stupid, ridiculous, attention seeking etc. That's not something people would wish to be classed as by others. Yes we know that others self harm, but this is rarely portrayed in a positive light and so it's not logical that it would be replicated, unless someone was desperate for help or release.

    I think it is an interesting topic, and I'm not really arguing that there is no social influence whatsoever but I feel that Unoriginal- made his point rather insensitively in his first post. He said it's not a mental illness (which it isn't, it's a coping mechanism) but to suggest it is wholly social with no psychological influence is going too far I think.
    Yeah I agree with your argument completely. It's trying to distinguish whether self harming could come under social influence, but I do believe that self harming can be categorised under a mental/psychological issue.

    The whole concept of self harming itself is not the mental illness; that is inflicting the emotions are kept hidden. Those feelings could be regarded as the mental illness, as I'm assuming that someone would only self harm if they were feeling at their lowest peak.

    Alcoholism and self harming are completely different but they do have similarities like a way of coping with stress/problems in their daily lifes. I would say agree with you though, when you say it is a coping mechanism.
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    Sometimes I think I'm imagining it. I don't know if that's strange, probably. I've read a lot about it, and and now a part of me thinks I'm just "imagining" it.
    Which makes no sense really.
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    I'd agree that the forms that self-harm might take and the prevalence it might have can be socially influenced. However, I don't think this is any kind of indicator of differences in underlying causes for self-harm or the seriousness of the problems that self-harm indicates.
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    (Original post by Unoriginal-)
    There's a social aspect to self-harming. Fact..

    Think of it like this - If, since before you were born, people were dealing with depression by going for a mile long jog instead. Imagine this was the norm, and noone knew of, or had ever 'self harmed' either physically, or mentally. Imagine that every time someone was going to self-harm in any way whatsoever - said self-harming was replaced with a mile long jog. Ever since before you were born. So now, when you feel depressed, would you self harm? No, because it'd never been done before and you had never heard of it and so would never even consider it. By that, we can deduce that self harming is in fact, a societal influence. For example, if you were aware that a family member had been 'hearing voices', you'd want to 'help' that person, by seeking medical attention, and in turn hope that these voices would soon stop. But in a completely different cultural setting, such as one in an African tribe (no racism intended - just an example), hearing voices would be seen as a positive thing. The person hearing the voices would be seen to have some kind of 'gift' and would looked up to, rather than looked down upon by his/her society.

    That's what I mean by 'social', which I'm sure you already knew, but just wanted to be immature about it. But if you really did think that 'social' just means doing thing in groups, then I'd say depression is the least of your problems (in the society in which I assume you live - a western and first world one).
    Yes, I knew that is what you meant by 'social'. Would it surprise you that I never heard about self harm when I started?

    P.s are you a self harmer? If not, stop commenting because you see how it is from the outside and you cannot possibly understand.
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    I cut myself twice today.
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    (Original post by converselove)
    Yes, I knew that is what you meant by 'social'. Would it surprise you that I never heard about self harm when I started?

    P.s are you a self harmer? If not, stop commenting because you see how it is from the outside and you cannot possibly understand.
    If you knew what I meant by social, then why did you say some other random ****? Just being childish I guess...

    Firstly, I believe that you were fully aware of what self-harming was before you started. Obviously you're going to lie to try and prove your point. And even if you weren't consciously aware of it, your subconscious will have, beyond any doubt whatsoever, been aware of it.

    No, I haven't, which I think puts me in the perfect position to bring an unbiased view to the situation. Also, the fact that I study psychology and will become a psychologist also gives me a little bit more to provide to the argument. Furthermore I have two parents in clinical psychology (dealing directly with people like you on a daily basis, and have been doing so for about as long as you've been alive), a sister studying a doctorate in psychology,and various other members of my family in other departments in psychology. If anyone is least in the position to explain the things they do, it's the person with the mental illness. Fact.

    I find it almost humorous that people try to come out with the 'You've never had it and so don't know anything about it' approach. I actually urge you to study psychology in depth.

    Fact of the matter is that if noone had ever self-harmed or had any knowledge of it, and the coping mechanism that was widely
    used instead was jogging for a mile (I know it is random -it's just an example), then that's exactly what you would have done - jogged for a mile. We are shaped by society. Self-harm is by no means a natural coping mechanism.
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    (Original post by Unoriginal-)
    If you knew what I meant by social, then why did you say some other random ****? Just being childish I guess...

    Firstly, I believe that you were fully aware of what self-harming was before you started. Obviously you're going to lie to try and prove your point. And even if you weren't consciously aware of it, your subconscious will have, beyond any doubt whatsoever, been aware of it.

    No, I haven't, which I think puts me in the perfect position to bring an unbiased view to the situation. Also, the fact that I study psychology and will become a psychologist also gives me a little bit more to provide to the argument. Furthermore I have two parents in clinical psychology (dealing directly with people like you on a daily basis, and have been doing so for about as long as you've been alive), a sister studying a doctorate in psychology,and various other members of my family in other departments in psychology. If anyone is least in the position to explain the things they do, it's the person with the mental illness. Fact.

    I find it almost humorous that people try to come out with the 'You've never had it and so don't know anything about it' approach. I actually urge you to study psychology in depth.

    Fact of the matter is that if noone had ever self-harmed or had any knowledge of it, and the coping mechanism that was widely
    used instead was jogging for a mile (I know it is random -it's just an example), then that's exactly what you would have done - jogged for a mile. We are shaped by society. Self-harm is by no means a natural coping mechanism.
    Well, I wasn't although you won't believe me but it was about 4 years ago when I started and I had never heard of it in the news, none of my friends were self harmers etc.

    So you're going with the "I've read a book so I know all about it"? (yes, I know it's not just a book...)

    I never said it was a natural coping mechanism but it was how I coped with my parents' divorce and the death of my grandfather. When those things happened, I didn't think jogging for a mile would help me, I wasn't thinking about anything. I just remember self harming and not feeling anything else and so I repeated it because I got the desired feeling that I wanted, to not feel the emotional pain. No, it is not natural but it is what helped/helps me cope.
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    (Original post by Lamps08)
    I cut myself twice today.
    Do you feel like talking about it? PM me anytime and I'll try my best to help. Sorry to hear you're in this situation as I know how it feels.
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    (Original post by Unoriginal-)
    If anyone is least in the position to explain the things they do, it's the person with the mental illness. Fact.

    .
    Which is why research beyond randomised drug tests involving people with mental health problems never takes place :rolleyes:

    I think you have a point, in that the reason some people turn to it for the first time is going to be at least partly social, but I don't see how you're going to argue that it continues for social reasons as well.

    People with mental illness can, and do, have insight in to their illness and their behaviour. You're not going to be able to understand why people self harm without having the perspective of the self-harmer, so they're not the least qualified to explain. Only they know what emotions, and situations led to the self-harm and for what reason they continued it.
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    I have derealization disorder and depression probably as a result of that.
    It's frightening.
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    (Original post by converselove)
    Well, I wasn't although you won't believe me but it was about 4 years ago when I started and I had never heard of it in the news, none of my friends were self harmers etc.

    So you're going with the "I've read a book so I know all about it"? (yes, I know it's not just a book...)

    I never said it was a natural coping mechanism but it was how I coped with my parents' divorce and the death of my grandfather. When those things happened, I didn't think jogging for a mile would help me, I wasn't thinking about anything. I just remember self harming and not feeling anything else and so I repeated it because I got the desired feeling that I wanted, to not feel the emotional pain. No, it is not natural but it is what helped/helps me cope.
    Four years ago. You were 14 and so would have been aware of either the goth or emo or both stereotype about them being depressed and resorting to self harm when hating their life. So you were aware of self-harm, even if it was subconscious.

    No, it's not about reading books - it's about educating oneself and having highly experienced parents who basically dedicate their whole life to clinical psychology matters.

    I know you didn't think jogging would help you. It was an example.

    Sorry about your parents' divorce and grandfather's death btw.


    (Original post by laut_biru)
    Which is why research beyond randomised drug tests involving people with mental health problems never takes place :rolleyes:

    I think you have a point, in that the reason some people turn to it for the first time is going to be at least partly social, but I don't see how you're going to argue that it continues for social reasons as well.

    People with mental illness can, and do, have insight in to their illness and their behaviour. You're not going to be able to understand why people self harm without having the perspective of the self-harmer, so they're not the least qualified to explain. Only they know what emotions, and situations led to the self-harm and for what reason they continued it.
    Who said it continued for social reasons? There are a number of reasons that it can continue, familiarity and routine (both the stressors and the self-harm) being among the most common, with perceived results that the individual has coerced themselves into believing they achieve through self-harm.

    Yes, obviously they have insight into their behaviour and illness, although a psychologist will have more insight into their behaviour and illness (being a psychologist and all).

    'Only they know what emotions, and situations led to the self-harm and for what reason they continued it.' Not true. Anyone could know what emotions they're going through. Depends who they talk to etc. But again, their emotions are likely to be 'all over the place', and again, a good psychologist will have an unbiased and in depth understanding of their condition.
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    (Original post by Unoriginal-)



    Who said it continued for social reasons? There are a number of reasons that it can continue, familiarity and routine (both the stressors and the self-harm) being among the most common, with perceived results that the individual has coerced themselves into believing they achieve through self-harm.

    Yes, obviously they have insight into their behaviour and illness, although a psychologist will have more insight into their behaviour and illness (being a psychologist and all).

    'Only they know what emotions, and situations led to the self-harm and for what reason they continued it.' Not true. Anyone could know what emotions they're going through. Depends who they talk to etc. But again, their emotions are likely to be 'all over the place', and again, a good psychologist will have an unbiased and in depth understanding of their condition.
    You stated that self harm is a social thing. I'm glad to see that you acknowledge that it's really only that at the beginning (though, tbh, I don't believe that even then it's solely a social thing).

    A psychologist can not tell a person what their emotions are, they can only be told by that person themselves. Almost certainly they are better qualified to help that person change things, but I disagree that a self-harmer is inherently the least able to say why they self harm. The input of the both is necessary.
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    (Original post by Unoriginal-)
    Four years ago. You were 14 and so would have been aware of either the goth or emo or both stereotype about them being depressed and resorting to self harm when hating their life. So you were aware of self-harm, even if it was subconscious.

    No, it's not about reading books - it's about educating oneself and having highly experienced parents who basically dedicate their whole life to clinical psychology matters.

    I know you didn't think jogging would help you. It was an example.

    Sorry about your parents' divorce and grandfather's death btw.
    You can prove that? I knew about goths but I didn't know they resorted to self harm, I didn't read up about them. All I knew about them was they dressed in black, liked certain music etc.

    I did say it wasn't all about reading books. You can't understand 100% what it is like. Not until you've been through it and I stand by that point.

    I know it was an example but I was talking about any type of distraction, none of them work.

    Thanks.
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    (Original post by hmon93)
    I have derealization disorder and depression probably as a result of that.
    It's frightening.
    What sort of things do you experience with derealisation?
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    Bipolar II. On medications which helped for a while, then made it worse (usually around the 3 month mark each go round) the easing on and withdrawl of the medications was worse than the episodes themselves. Whiskey and skunk was helpful for a while, but ultimately proved themselves not to be a long term solution.

    My suggestion for mental health disorders? Get plenty of exercise, rest and sleep well, eat a balanced diet of plenty of fresh fruit and vegetables, stay away from temptations which you know will trigger (weed - anxiety and panic attacks these days, alcohol severe depression) and live a structured life. Most importantly? Have a large, wide and varied social circle. Choose your friends wisely and as best you can be a good judge of character.
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    (Original post by Liquidus Zeromus)
    What sort of things do you experience with derealisation?
    It's hard to explain... I just frequently get the feeling that the world is somewhat dreamlike and unreal, it's always terrifying. And then my head feels really pressurised and painful.
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    (Original post by converselove)
    You can prove that? I knew about goths but I didn't know they resorted to self harm, I didn't read up about them. All I knew about them was they dressed in black, liked certain music etc.

    I did say it wasn't all about reading books. You can't understand 100% what it is like. Not until you've been through it and I stand by that point.

    I know it was an example but I was talking about any type of distraction, none of them work.

    Thanks.
    So you knew that they dressed in black and listened to certain music, but somehow the fact they self-harm just managed to elude you:wink: Even if you weren't consciously aware of self-harm, you subconscious was.

    I'm pretty sure my parents have a better understanding of it than you do.

    I'm guessing you actually haven't tried them all, but okay.
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    Every time I pass a window, I get the urge to lick it.
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    (Original post by Unoriginal-)
    So you knew that they dressed in black and listened to certain music, but somehow the fact they self-harm just managed to elude you:wink: Even if you weren't consciously aware of self-harm, you subconscious was.

    I'm pretty sure my parents have a better understanding of it than you do.

    I'm guessing you actually haven't tried them all, but okay.
    As a matter of fact, yes. They didn't go around sleeveless with noticable scars... I was quite sheltered then.

    I'm pretty sure they don't seeing as how theye don't know my situation, they don't know anything about me, my background, my reasons... They don't know a lot of things. I think I understand myself a hell of a lot better than your parents do, who don't even know me.

    No, I've not tried them all because there are far too many. Distractions last when they're happening and perhaps a short while after but if I got the urge to self harm, it wouldn't go away. It would be in the back of my mind and ultimately, I'd do it a short while afterwards. The distraction would have to be on-going. That's just for me though, distractions work for some people.
 
 
 
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