Is communism really bad? Watch

daemongreen
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#341
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#341
Well trial and error suggests that it is
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Emaemmaemily
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#342
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(Original post by humanrights)
ok, lets just run with your standard politicially correct definition of nazism...........

communism also promoted hatred in the form of class hate. which led to the deaths of hundreds of millions of people.

a wolf on sheeps clothing is not a sheep. surly you can understand that concept.

again, the proof is in the pudding and communism is the most murderous ideology in history. communism lends itself to mass genocide. it is a perfect tool for genocidal maniacs and i am quite shocked that you would dare to defend it.

but, marxism like all religions, blinds the faithful. so maybe i shouldn't expect any less from a fanatic.......
It's not a religion, jesus.

It doesn't promote class hatred,... It promotes there being NO class divides.
There is nothing that encourages hatred without communism... It is the dictators that pretended to create communism that caused deaths (because they kept control and forced the country into things they didn't want to do). This is nothing like communism.

If communism were to actually occur, it would have to be in the future, and it would have to be the people making it happen (not the government, because that defeats the entire point).

I can't believe you don't understand this at all.
Communism as a theory does nothing but promote fairness and equality, there's no violence involved.
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Tahooper
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#343
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(Original post by Aj12)
Actually pure communism would mean no state but everything owned by the people. Socialism is everything owned by the state. Feudalism to Capitalism to socialism then onto communism
Oh okay thank you for the correction without insulting me
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OllieS
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#344
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#344
(Original post by JakePearson)
Communism, despite opinion to the contrary, was bad both in theory and in practise.
(Original post by humanrights)
the communist regimes of the 20th century were the most murderous regimes in human history but somehow you are trying to say that communism is the idea of peace?
It still surprises me how people believe communist regimes were genuinely communist (or even tried to be). I have little idea where the notion comes from. The USSR and such labelled themselves communist, as did the privileged elite in the West (who run the media), who wanted to bury the idea of communism (because the democracy inherent in the ideology of communism means that privileged elite loses their privileges) by associating it with dictatorship/Stalinism/etc. But surely people can see past the propaganda on both sides? The only way the USSR differed to the West was that the economy was much more state than market run, but if a state run economy is the opposite of a capitalist one (a free market economy), it doesn't somehow make it socialist/communist. The core of socialism is workers' control of production (in the industrialised state where most of the population are workers, as Marx envisioned); the first thing Lenin and Trotsky did when coming to power, even before the Civil War started, was shut down the workers' soviets in the factories and re-install former managers. The modes of production (the very thing which determined history, according to Marx) remained the same, thus no socialist system could have conceivably been established. To believe otherwise is fantasy; there's a reason why almost all on the Left are so keen to denounce Stalinism, making a point it had nothing to do with Marxism.
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humanrights
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#345
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(Original post by Emaemmaemily)
It's not a religion, jesus.

It doesn't promote class hatred,... It promotes there being NO class divides.
There is nothing that encourages hatred without communism... It is the dictators that pretended to create communism that caused deaths (because they kept control and forced the country into things they didn't want to do). This is nothing like communism.

If communism were to actually occur, it would have to be in the future, and it would have to be the people making it happen (not the government, because that defeats the entire point).

I can't believe you don't understand this at all.
Communism as a theory does nothing but promote fairness and equality, there's no violence involved.




ok, ok, i think i have it..........the soviet union was not communist. it just pretended to be communist so it could give communists a bad name? so was the soviet union really run by secret nazis? and the chinese communists? secret nazis as well?........




i don't really know what to say to someone who is actually attempting to call the most evil ideology in history peaceful and loving. its ludicrous. laughable beyond belief. scary even.


i'm guessing you are getting this claptrap either from a deluded 'comrade' professor or you are reading to many extremist socialist websites. either way, you need to expose yourself to some non biased material on the subject.
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humanrights
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#346
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(Original post by OllieS)
It still surprises me how people believe communist regimes were genuinely communist (or even tried to be). I have little idea where the notion comes from. The USSR and such labelled themselves communist, as did the privileged elite in the West (who run the media), who wanted to bury the idea of communism (because the democracy inherent in the ideology of communism means that privileged elite loses their privileges) by associating it with dictatorship/Stalinism/etc. But surely people can see past the propaganda on both sides? The only way the USSR differed to the West was that the economy was much more state than market run, but if a state run economy is the opposite of a capitalist one (a free market economy), it doesn't somehow make it socialist/communist. The core of socialism is workers' control of production (in the industrialised state where most of the population are workers, as Marx envisioned); the first thing Lenin and Trotsky did when coming to power, even before the Civil War started, was shut down the workers' soviets in the factories and re-install former managers. The modes of production (the very thing which determined history, according to Marx) remained the same, thus no socialist system could have conceivably been established. To believe otherwise is fantasy; there's a reason why almost all on the Left are so keen to denounce Stalinism, making a point it had nothing to do with Marxism.






the problem with marx is that it literally is a religion to its devotees. and like religion everyone has a different interpretation on the scripture.


heres something from the christian bible that sums up marxism very well.

''by their fruits ye shall know them.''
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Rhadamanthus
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#347
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(Original post by OllieS)
It still surprises me how people believe communist regimes were genuinely communist (or even tried to be). I have little idea where the notion comes from. The USSR and such labelled themselves communist, as did the privileged elite in the West (who run the media), who wanted to bury the idea of communism (because the democracy inherent in the ideology of communism means that privileged elite loses their privileges) by associating it with dictatorship/Stalinism/etc. But surely people can see past the propaganda on both sides? The only way the USSR differed to the West was that the economy was much more state than market run, but if a state run economy is the opposite of a capitalist one (a free market economy), it doesn't somehow make it socialist/communist. The core of socialism is workers' control of production (in the industrialised state where most of the population are workers, as Marx envisioned); the first thing Lenin and Trotsky did when coming to power, even before the Civil War started, was shut down the workers' soviets in the factories and re-install former managers. The modes of production (the very thing which determined history, according to Marx) remained the same, thus no socialist system could have conceivably been established. To believe otherwise is fantasy; there's a reason why almost all on the Left are so keen to denounce Stalinism, making a point it had nothing to do with Marxism.
Hence why I stated it was bad in theory too... Or did you just decide to ignore what I wrote when you quoted me?
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Emaemmaemily
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#348
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(Original post by humanrights)
ok, ok, i think i have it..........the soviet union was not communist. it just pretended to be communist so it could give communists a bad name? so was the soviet union really run by secret nazis? and the chinese communists? secret nazis as well?........




i don't really know what to say to someone who is actually attempting to call the most evil ideology in history peaceful and loving. its ludicrous. laughable beyond belief. scary even.


i'm guessing you are getting this claptrap either from a deluded 'comrade' professor or you are reading to many extremist socialist websites. either way, you need to expose yourself to some non biased material on the subject.
I don't know how to debate with someone who can call an ideology which is clearly based on nothing but tollerance, fairness and classless societies "evil". Using words like that is just ridiculous.

Why did you call them secret Nazis? That's not even slightly related.

Communist russia = not communism. This is because they still had a government in charge, and didn't run things as communsit ideals show at all (hence why there were still really poor people, and better off people).

Same goes for communist China.
While the country is FORCE into it, and a government remains... It is not communism.
You can't argue against that... It's just not. There being no government or state is in the DEFINITION.
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medic_armadillo7
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#349
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(Original post by Lewis :D)
I mean, the idea looks really good, but it isn't viable at all.
People naturally take charge, therefore a higher class is automatically formed.
Plus my geography teacher said communists knew how to look after their own.
In principle: YES. In practice: HELL NO!!!!!!!!
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melanie833
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#350
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#350
Communism is well-intentioned at its heart.

It just doesn't work. It's flawed in a ridiculous number of ways.

It's not evil. That's like saying democracy is evil because the Germans voted Hitler in. Humanity has a terrible Murphy's Law trait about it, and no matter how perfect a system is on paper, we'll find a way to f*ck it up. Communism is dangerous because it's especially susceptible to this. It's sort of like a naive child in a bad neighbourhood; it tries to be good, but really it doesn't understand where it is and inevitably will fall in with the wrong crowd. It will be manipulated by bad people for their bad purposes.
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humanrights
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(Original post by melanie833)
Communism is well-intentioned at its heart.

It just doesn't work. It's flawed in a ridiculous number of ways.

It's not evil. That's like saying democracy is evil because the Germans voted Hitler in. Humanity has a terrible Murphy's Law trait about it, and no matter how perfect a system is on paper, we'll find a way to f*ck it up. Communism is dangerous because it's especially susceptible to this. It's sort of like a naive child in a bad neighbourhood; it tries to be good, but really it doesn't understand where it is and inevitably will fall in with the wrong crowd. It will be manipulated by bad people for their bad purposes.



i could not agree more with any of this.

its why it's so important to reject all ideology. ideology is just theory. what matters is what work in practical terms when taking human beings and their emotions and faults into account.

that not a negative view. its a sensible view-- jumping off a a cliff and hoping to survive is possible, but you wouldn't bet on it to happen. betting on the ideals of communism- or any other utopian vision- is also a like jumping off a cliff and expecting to survive.

its all theory and no common sense practicality.




i do disagree on one point, which is-- communism was not that well intentioned anyway. marx did not believe that his theories could be brought about by peaceful means.

true utopia if it ever happens ( which is the promise of heaven) will be a natural event on earth. it cannot be forced by flawed theories of man.
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Emaemmaemily
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(Original post by humanrights)
. it cannot be forced by flawed theories of man.
^That bit is kind of my point.
That it will happen naturally when "people" have decided it's what they want and they no longer wish to be "ruled" or anything by a government... It will become part of the natural development of our societies (if it does indeed happen).
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Fusilero
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(Original post by humanrights)
ok, ok, i think i have it..........the soviet union was not communist. it just pretended to be communist so it could give communists a bad name? so was the soviet union really run by secret nazis? and the chinese communists? secret nazis as well?........




i don't really know what to say to someone who is actually attempting to call the most evil ideology in history peaceful and loving. its ludicrous. laughable beyond belief. scary even.


i'm guessing you are getting this claptrap either from a deluded 'comrade' professor or you are reading to many extremist socialist websites. either way, you need to expose yourself to some non biased material on the subject.
What non-biased material? What magical objective observers do you read from? Professors of the Austrian School of Economics? :holmes:
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OllieS
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(Original post by JakePearson)
Hence why I stated it was bad in theory too...
So you still think 'communism' in practice is bad - you still think regimes like Stalin's were communism in practice? Or did you just decide to ignore what I wrote when you quoted me?

Note: I wasn't making any argument over communism being good/bad in theory, I was just saying how communism, as Marx envisioned, has never happened in practice. I didn't realise I had to be so specific when quoting people.

(Original post by humanrights)
the problem with marx is that it literally is a religion to its devotees. and like religion everyone has a different interpretation on the scripture.
This is an interesting point. It's why when I think someone wants communism (which is essentially anarchism - no power structures, production run democratically by the people that produce themselves, etc), I think they should read anarchist writers like Bakunin, because he made a very interesting point about how Marx's writing could be interpreted: the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' idea can be hijacked and used to justify a dictatorship. He said that in the 1860's/70's, and predicted it would happen; no doubt it did in the form of Lenin and Stalin 50 years later (and even later/elsewhere, although there are a few differences between say, Maoism, Juche and Stalinism).
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Emaemmaemily
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Communism isn't a religion :argh:
Just because some people understand (or believe, I guess) that it's a theory that could work, doesn't mean we worship the idea and pray to Marx every night...
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MLL
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I suppose I like the idea of common ownership, but it just never turns out the way it's supposed to be. I mean common ownership is supposed to mean more equality, and judging by countries where they had or have communism, you see greater differences in society than with many other ideologies.

Basically the idea is great, it just doesn't work in practice.
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Emaemmaemily
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(Original post by MLL)
I suppose I like the idea of common ownership, but it just never turns out the way it's supposed to be. I mean common ownership is supposed to mean more equality, and judging by countries where they had or have communism, you see greater differences in society than with many other ideologies.

Basically the idea is great, it just doesn't work in practice.
^ No country has had or does have communism, that's kinda the point.
I've explained in previous posts (possibly on this page?) why the previous "attempts" failed, and the how it could work sometime in the future (maybe, if things happen this way).
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MLL
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(Original post by Emaemmaemily)
^ No country has had or does have communism, that's kinda the point.
I've explained in previous posts (possibly on this page?) why the previous "attempts" failed, and the how it could work sometime in the future (maybe, if things happen this way).
I read your previous post, I understand what you mean. Because seen from the narrow definition of communism, you're right.
But I would still classify countries like China and North Korea as communistic, as would CIA's factbook.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/ch.html

And that was what I based my comment on.
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Emaemmaemily
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(Original post by MLL)
I read your previous post, I understand what you mean. Because seen from the narrow definition of communism, you're right.
But I would still classify countries like China and North Korea as communistic, as would CIA's factbook.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/ch.html

And that was what I based my comment on.
Well the CIA aren't exactly the authority on these kinds of things.
If you know what I mean, then you'll understand that you can't use places like China as an example of how "communism" doesn't work because they aren't representing communsim at all.
They may have SOME features from the ideology, but it's not communism itself.

Anyway, I'm off to bed.
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MLL
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(Original post by Emaemmaemily)
Well the CIA aren't exactly the authority on these kinds of things.
If you know what I mean, then you'll understand that you can't use places like China as an example of how "communism" doesn't work because they aren't representing communsim at all.
They may have SOME features from the ideology, but it's not communism itself.

Anyway, I'm off to bed.
No, CIA aren't the authority on ideology, but I would label them as a rather credible source.

By the narrow definition of communism, like you previously explained, then no. No country has ever applied the full definition of the ideology in practice, hence it is impossible to judge whether it works or not. - In that sense, you are right.

However, China and North Korea have political parties that label themselves as communistic, hence I believe it would be fair to judge their implementation of the communistic ideology. - And given their "versions" of communism, I'd say it doesn't work.
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