What is "Chance"? Watch

Zaki
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#341
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#341
(Original post by Ruthless Dutchman)
Don't ask questions then

I made a statement.
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Zaki
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#342
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#342
(Original post by Hype en Ecosse)
Why won't you answer my question? It's a fairly simple question, I think. What fields can explain it, if not science?
ANY that adhere strictly to facts and logic, which would include genuine science - to which Dawkins does not! What he appeals to is NOT science but merely his materialistic dogma.
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Hype en Ecosse
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#343
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(Original post by Zaki)
ANY that adhere strictly to facts and logic, which would include genuine science - to which Dawkins does not! What he appeals to is NOT science but merely his materialistic dogma.
Name me some, then. Genuine science IS Dawkins' science. I'm not going to argue about that with you. That's not why I'm here.
Name me some examples other than science.
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Foghorn Leghorn
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#344
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What do you mean by chance? Like when someone says, he came the glass fell on the pillow by chance?

If yes, then in this sense I would take it as it happened at random i.e there the person that put the pillow on the floor didn't intend the glass to fall on it. It just happened.
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Zaki
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#345
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#345
(Original post by FireGarden)
Clearly not familiar with the concepts of QM; you shouldn't argue against something you don't understand. Yes, matter has mass and inertia at any scale (re-reading my post I found I did make too strong a statement about it's breakdown at small scales, so yeah, I admit that was incorrect), but the laws of the theory and strange mathematics I've had to do concerning this stuff conclude that matter is indeed wavelike, and as found empirically, it is a wave of probability (to avoid similar overly-strong statements like before; the wavefunction itself is not observable at all, however the predictions of such a model have never failed, and it is in this sense that I mean matter has been found to be a wave of probability. That idea, has yet to fail). It's that simple. Makes no sense at all; that's half the beauty of QM. It's total nonsense that is correct. Argue against me if you want, the very fact of the matter is this is how everything is currently best understood.
This is nonsense! Wave-particle duality DOES NOT say Matter is spontaneous. It says when Matter manifests it is corpuscular. When unmanifest it is a wave. |How and when it manifests is determined by Spontaneity - NOT Matter itself. That is the whole point.

To a superficial observer, Spontaneity is INDISTINGUISHABLE from free will - and therefore by the standards of contemporary physics which knows only observables they are identical in every respect.

The very presence of probability points to a free causal agency - which Matter can NEVER be. Can you think of ANYTHING ELSE but such an agency which could generate a probability field? Matter CANNOT - inasmuch as it just INERTIA.

Nevertheless if your definition of Matter is such as to allow Matter to be Spontaneous, then you have to acknowledge that Matter, as you define it, has free will. Either way, what you're dealing with in quantum mechanics is Spontaneity - NOT INERTIA.
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#346
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(Original post by Zaki)
I made a statement.
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvv
(Original post by Zaki)
It's clear which dictionary you prefer- and why?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
I believe the question mark denotes a question, unless you are making up your own rules of punctuation. But that's for another thread.. :rolleyes:
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Zaki
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#347
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#347
(Original post by Ruthless Dutchman)
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvv

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
I believe the question mark denotes a question, unless you are making up your own rules of punctuation. But that's for another thread.. :rolleyes:
That's clearly a typo.
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SecretDuck
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#348
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Chance favours the connected mind. As a famous economist once said...
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FireGarden
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#349
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(Original post by Zaki)
This is nonsense! Wave-particle duality DOES NOT say Matter is spontaneous. It says when Matter manifests it is corpuscular. When unmanifest it is a wave. |How and when it manifests is determined by Spontaneity - NOT Matter itself. That is the whole point.

To a superficial observer, Spontaneity is INDISTINGUISHABLE from free will - and therefore by the standards of contemporary physics which knows only observables they are identical in every respect.

The very presence of probability points to a free causal agency - which Matter can NEVER be. Can you think of ANYTHING ELSE but such an agency which could generate a probability field? Matter CANNOT - inasmuch as it just INERTIA.

Nevertheless if your definition of Matter is such as to allow Matter to be Spontaneous, then you have to acknowledge that Matter, as you define it, has free will. Either way, what you're dealing with in quantum mechanics is Spontaneity - NOT INERTIA.
The whole point of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is that matter has intrinsic probability built into its very nature. So yes, while matter does have the totally not-reliant-on-chance property of inertia; it has others such as position and momentum, which are totally reliant upon probability. Hell, the very creation of matter can be spontaneous - check out vacuum fluctuations.
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SecretDuck
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#350
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(Original post by Zaki)
That's clearly a typo.
I believe chance exists but talent and determination clearly have more potency in determining one's fate.
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C_B_C
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(Original post by Zaki)
The search for Truth is a MOST serious matter. It can NEVER be treated with levity withoout dire consequences. Those who approach Truth with such irreverence shall NEVER find It. And, even if It were given to them by some generous benefactor would barter it away again cheaply - not realising Its great value.
I don't value the truth as much as you do. Truth only matters for certain areas, not for everything. Persuing Scientific truth can come in handy to certain individuals, not to everyone. Persuing political truth can come in handy to certain individuals, not to everyone. The same goes to freedom.

There is a difference between ignorance and not persuing the truth.

There are more important things in life, believe it or not.
As cliche as it sounds, I believe that Happiness is more important, and much easier to achieve.
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Zaki
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#352
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(Original post by C_B_C)
I don't value the truth as much as you do. Truth only matters for certain areas, not for everything. Persuing Scientific truth can come in handy to certain individuals, not to everyone. Persuing political truth can come in handy to certain individuals, not to everyone. The same goes to freedom.

There is a difference between ignorance and not persuing the truth.

There are more important things in life, believe it or not.
As cliche as it sounds, I believe that Happiness is more important, and much easier to achieve.
Well, at least you're being honest about the fact that you prefer fantasy to Truth - at least sometimes. That is typical of materialists.
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Zaki
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#353
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#353
(Original post by FireGarden)
The whole point of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is that matter has intrinsic probability built into its very nature. So yes, while matter does have the totally not-reliant-on-chance property of inertia; it has others such as position and momentum, which are totally reliant upon probability. Hell, the very creation of matter can be spontaneous - check out vacuum fluctuations.
What rubbish! This is just illogical waffle! Are you now suggesting that the vacuum of space is material? And you call yourself a "physicist"? Sheeeeeesh!
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Zaki
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#354
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#354
(Original post by SecretDuck)
I believe chance exists but talent and determination clearly have more potency in determining one's fate.
"Chance" being WHAT - exactly? And what are "talent" and "determination" - in your opinion? And do you think they can exist without Conscious Will preceding them?
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SecretDuck
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#355
(Original post by Zaki)
"Chance" being WHAT - exactly? And what are "talent" and "determination" - in your opinion? And do you think they can exist without Conscious Will preceding them?
Talent is the ability to do something very well and determination is the willing to excel with a lot of hard work. I believe the equation of success is:

Talent + Determination + A little bit of chance

And chance is not conscious but in fact subconscious.
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Keckers
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#356
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(Original post by SecretDuck)
Talent is the ability to do something very well and determination is the willing to excel with a lot of hard work. I believe the equation of success is:

Talent + Determination + A little bit of chance

And chance is not conscious but in fact subconscious.
Surely chance depends more on environment and what people are doing around you?
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Zaki
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(Original post by SecretDuck)
Talent is the ability to do something very well and determination is the willing to excel with a lot of hard work. I believe the equation of success is:

Talent + Determination + A little bit of chance

And chance is not conscious but in fact subconscious.
Clear as much all that, isn't it?

Can talent or determination exist without being preceded by Conscious Will though?
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C_B_C
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(Original post by Zaki)
Well, at least you're being honest about the fact that you prefer fantasy to Truth - at least sometimes. That is typical of materialists.
In which way does the Truth affect materialism?

I've always considered myself very anti-materialistic, to be honest. I don't buy things I don't need. I share a lot of my money and objects. I've never put items over fun. I've never cared about having something new, or about scratching or losing something I own.

Yet I don't spend my time worrying about "The Truth" about the Universe: something, frankly, I doubt you even know what you're looking for.

The closest you can get to "the truth" is to have a scientific mindset, which many people have nowadays. People now seem to understand chance and probability more than ever and forget about things like destiny.

But when it comes down to it, when considering life and the Universe, "the truth" is completely relative to each individual. Religion is "the truth" for many, many people on this planet (and probably always will be). It's extremely pedantic of you to think that you know better than any of them (especially considering that you're probably still in your teens and haven't really done much in life).

So your persue is one of the stupedest things I've seen so far. Something probably influenced by some second rate (american, by any chance?) book that you've found, where the auther probably doesn't even believe a word he/her is saying, and prays on people like you to make a living.

You're never going to find anything, let alone "The Truth", if you close your ideas so much.
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Zaki
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#359
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(Original post by C_B_C)
In which way does the Truth affect materialism?

I've always considered myself very anti-materialistic, to be honest. I don't buy things I don't need. I share a lot of my money and objects. I've never put items over fun. I've never cared about having something new, or about scratching or losing something I own.

Yet I don't spend my time worrying about "The Truth" about the Universe: something, frankly, I doubt you even know what you're looking for.

The closest you can get to "the truth" is to have a scientific mindset, which many people have nowadays. People now seem to understand chance and probability more than ever and forget about things like destiny.

But when it comes down to it, when considering life and the Universe, "the truth" is completely relative to each individual. Religion is "the truth" for many, many people on this planet (and probably always will be). It's extremely pedantic of you to think that you know better than any of them (especially considering that you're probably still in your teens and haven't really done much in life).

So your persue is one of the stupedest things I've seen so far. Something probably influenced by some second rate (american, by any chance?) book that you've found, where the auther probably doesn't even believe a word he/her is saying, and prays on people like you to make a living.

You're never going to find anything, let alone "The Truth", if you close your ideas so much.
Your ENTIRE worldview is based on Matter, is it not? That makes you a materialist.
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SecretDuck
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(Original post by Keckers)
Surely chance depends more on environment and what people are doing around you?
Chance is an attribute which governs luck. Both rely on what the person is doing. The chance to win the lottery is different from the chance of gaining a place at Oxbridge.

(Original post by Zaki)
Clear as much all that, isn't it?

Can talent or determination exist without being preceded by Conscious Will though?
If a person does not have talent or determination they can still rely on chance; though without talent or determination chance is terribly low. If I couldn't care less about poker, the chance of me winning the whole lot is very minimal.
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