Do you consider UKIP good or bad? Watch

Fifi96
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#341
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#341
(Original post by geokinkladze)
I can confirm that a client in the automotive industry takes on a lot of Polish workers, they work hard and they are diligent. I'd be wary of using MRPL though, it is more of a higher level, theoretical idea, it certainly wouldn't occur to most firms to make decisions that way.

I know that, but the concept- as you say.

The problem with that statement is you can remove "Nigel Farage" and replace it with either of the main party leaders and it would still apply.


True, but Farage takes it to new extremes.

..and there I was thinking you were well versed in economics. EU for Free Trade? Seriously? It is a collection of duties, subsidies, sanctions and quotas. It's just about standardising the barriers, not removing them.

I could have put that point across better. We are benefiting from the EU Free Trade Agreements (just look at the South Korea Free Trade Agreement), and being part of the EU’s single market (the biggest trading block in the world) gives our exporters access to 500 million customers across Europe and better negotiating advantages. There are alternatives(Norwegian, Swiss and EFTA model) but compared to the full EU membership, Britain is better suited to full membership.


Good advice which we would all do well to follow.
:rolleyes:
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geokinkladze
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#342
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(Original post by RumpeIstiltskin)
The convention only prevents people being deported when they're at a very high risk of being subject to torture ect.
What about Article 8 and the right to a private life. Haven't criminals been using this to delay/avoid deportation?
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geokinkladze
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(Original post by Fifi96)
Moan about immigration all you like, Im willing to bet you have been treated by an immigrant doctor/dentist/nurse/optician.
You have actually hit the nail squarely on the head. Those doctors, nurses, dentists etc are, in the main, from outside the EU. They most likely came into this country before the current legislation opened the doors to EU migrants (and took the key off us).

When those immigrants arrived, it was into a country which controlled it's own borders. Immigration was more managed, less chaotic and therefore placed fewer demands on local authorities.

This is the problem with people who don't understand the issue, because the issue of immigration can't be discussed openly. UKIP don't want to stop immigration, they want the UK to be able to control it like we did before. Immigration is fantastic for this country.
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geokinkladze
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#344
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#344
(Original post by Blueray2)
They don't believe in climate change
Go on then I'll be your Huckleberry. Where's the evidence that they don't believe in climate change. Is this official UKIP policy?
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billydisco
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#345
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
Well that's the problem with using "imaginary" stories - which was all your idea.

Over the past 20 years or so, the unemployment rate of british nationals has remained relatively stable - this is despite an increase in migration to the country.

In fact, the only reputable source which suggests a newsworthy negative impact on jobs pointed the blame at non-eu migrants - and of course, we do have control over their access to the country. The same report again stated that EU migration "did not have a statistically significant association with native employment."

So what you, and UKIP, are saying just does not stand up to scrutiny.
So who are you suggesting would do the jobs immigrants are doing, if immigrants were prevented from coming here? Aliens?
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#346
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(Original post by geokinkladze)
Go on then I'll be your Huckleberry. Where's the evidence that they don't believe in climate change. Is this official UKIP policy?
It was until they abandoned all policy what so ever (another big criticism of UKIP - running with no policies beyond "we don't like europe"): http://ukip.org/media/policies/energy.pdf

"the slight warming in the last hundred years is entirely consistent with well-established, long-term natural climate cycles"
"there is simply no need to appeal to CO2 as an explanation for natural variation".
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billydisco
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#347
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(Original post by geokinkladze)
What about Article 8 and the right to a private life. Haven't criminals been using this to delay/avoid deportation?
What about the right to a family life too? Stopped criminals being deported because they quickly had kids here in the UK.
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pmc:producer
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#348
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Some of the stuff on here is ridiculous... I seen someone post on the first page there than 'UKIP are bad because they want to take human rights away from the UK' as if leaving the EU and their human rights legislation would mean no human rights and terror for Britain. Pathetic.

That said, whilst I do like Farage, some of UKIPs policies need going over! Bad? No. Room for massive improvement? Yes.

Overall they're a good thing, they've got the public's attention, people are engaging with politics again, and the rest of the establishment is forced in to answering difficult questions/dealing with difficult issues they would be only too happy to ignore otherwise.
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billydisco
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
It was until they abandoned all policy what so ever (another big criticism of UKIP - running with no policies beyond "we don't like europe"): http://ukip.org/media/policies/energy.pdf
How did the last ice age occur if this global warming is caused by man/industry/emissions etc?
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by billydisco)
How did the last ice age occur if this global warming is caused by man/industry/emissions etc?
This is like seeing a dead body with a knife in the back, and concluding death of natural causes, because people have died of natural causes before. It's absurd - global temperatures may fluctuate naturally, but that's not what we are seeing:
We're seeing unerring and accelerating glacier retreat (http://www.grid.unep.ch/glaciers/), acceleration of melting in Greenland (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5955/984.abstract) and accelerating loss of Antarctica, even the eastern part considered too stable to be subject to high levels of melting (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...40222/abstract).

Global climate change is accelerating, that cannot be denied without tossing out the research. Even if we consider it to have happened before, those were due to forcings in nature, increases in temperature escalated by positive feedback mechanisms, and increased CO2 output causes an increase in temperature because CO2 absorbs heat - much like being hotter in black fabric than white due to black clothing absorbing heat, not reflecting it like white fabric.
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billydisco
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
This is like seeing a dead body with a knife in the back, and concluding death of natural causes, because people have died of natural causes before. It's absurd - global temperatures may fluctuate naturally, but that's not what we are seeing:
We're seeing unerring and accelerating glacier retreat (http://www.grid.unep.ch/glaciers/), acceleration of melting in Greenland (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5955/984.abstract) and accelerating loss of Antarctica, even the eastern part considered too stable to be subject to high levels of melting (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...40222/abstract).

Global climate change is accelerating, that cannot be denied without tossing out the research. Even if we consider it to have happened before, those were due to forcings in nature, increases in temperature escalated by positive feedback mechanisms, and increased CO2 output causes an increase in temperature because CO2 absorbs heat - much like being hotter in black fabric than white due to black clothing absorbing heat, not reflecting it like white fabric.
You didnt answer my Q.....
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interact
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don't care about them being clear, racist bigots I'm emigrating anyway

But they're going to murder Britain with their climate change denial

i dont understand how farage has been able to portray himself as out of the establishment, when he's a neoliberal, ex-banker. what a loser he is
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Jimbo1234
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(Original post by InnerTemple)
Absolute rubbish.

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So who made them and why ? :rolleyes: Come on, back up your claim now.
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#354
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(Original post by billydisco)
You didnt answer my Q.....
I answered what was implied - that we aren't causing it because it's happened before. Now, unless you've got anything to refute the evidence showing global climate change is occurring, this discussion is over - I'm not going to go round in circles with you like davesmith did on the "no smoke without fire" idea.
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InnerTemple
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#355
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(Original post by billydisco)
So who are you suggesting would do the jobs immigrants are doing, if immigrants were prevented from coming here? Aliens?
Well in the mid 2000s, the demand for Labour outstripped supply, which saw migrant workers being used to plug the gap. So the answer to your question is...no one.

We need migrants. Nothing you have said has challenged the facts - you're just making stuff up.

(Original post by Jimbo1234)
So who made them and why ? :rolleyes: Come on, back up your claim now.
The convention rights were the idea of Churchill. Through the war, he pondered the idea of having a set of rights to prevent human rights abuses.

They were drafted under the guidance of another conservative politician and many UK lawyers had input.

Many of the rights actually reflect rights which had been part of UK custom for many, many years (some back to Magna Carta).

They do not exist solely for use by criminals. As I have said before, they have provided excellent protection for a great many people.

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thesabbath
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#356
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(Original post by interact)
don't care about them being clear, racist bigots I'm emigrating anyway

But they're going to murder Britain with their climate change denial

i dont understand how farage has been able to portray himself as out of the establishment, when he's a neoliberal, ex-banker. what a loser he is
They don't deny that the climate changes, it always has. They don't give much credence to the climate apocalypse religion, though, and in particular reject the extreme green taxes scam which transfers money from poor to rich while changing nothing.

Farage has never been a banker but feel free to construct a version of him which matches your prejudices.
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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by thesabbath)
Farage has never been a banker but feel free to construct a version of him which matches your prejudices.
He was the son of a stockbroker who after graduating from private school went into brokering himself. That's nothing to do with prejudices, just facts.
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Commercial Paper
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
He was the son of a stockbroker who after graduating from private school went into brokering himself. That's nothing to do with prejudices, just facts.
While this may be the case, it is also the case that Farage did not go to university and is probably the only political leader at the moment that hasn't. Therefore he is not fitting the stereotype of Oxford PPE that the rest do. And quite honestly, no one cares. No one cares about any of these non-material points about UKIP. Almost all their support comes from anger at the incompetence of other parties to connect with people.

Nigel Farage has the courage of his convictions, the other leaders don't. The other leaders are so insanely politically correct that whenever they try and communicate or market their point, it is so waffle-ridden that no one has a clue what they are talking about. Nick Clegg is worst at this, anything to avoid answering a question head on.

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Stiff Little Fingers
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(Original post by will2348)
While this may be the case, it is also the case that Farage did not go to university and is probably the only political leader at the moment that hasn't. Therefore he is not fitting the stereotype of Oxford PPE that the test do. And quite honestly, no one cares. No one cares about any of these non-material points about UKIP. Almost all their support comes from anger at the incompetence of other parties to connect with people.

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That makes not one jot of difference - farage is not an outsider to politics - rich family boy, in private education, not going to Oxford doesn't then make him a working class hero.




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Commercial Paper
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(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
That makes not one jot of difference - farage is not an outsider to politics - rich family boy, in private education, not going to Oxford doesn't then make him a working class hero.




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See my second point I edited. It doesn't matter if he is pure working class or not, he can connect where other leaders cannot and like a successful business, he is filling a rather large gap in the market. People have been so incredibly desperate to have their voice heard, and he provides a platform for that. And as polls suggest, it is a rather large voice that was being ignored - 35%.

If Farage is successful in the end, history books will look at this and judge it as the fault of the main political parties for not addressing the issues of the people - and what happens when they are consistently ignored and then insulted.

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