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    (Original post by TSA)
    As even I can get up a random website refuting pretty much all of those

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific...the_Qur'an

    I could memorise a book of poetry that is the same length as the Quran in two years, if I took the same approach I did when I memorised the Quran.
    I refuse to read anything that's on wiki. Go with some trusted sources not wiki or other sources that is edited by someone without knowledge of Islam. Last time I went there it didn't know who made the first quran.
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    Free paslestine <3
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    (Original post by ronmack)
    I refuse to read anything that's on wiki. Go with some trusted sources not wiki or other sources that is edited by someone without knowledge of Islam. Last time I went there it didn't know who made the first quran.
    I was going to provide a reputable source but thought it was only fair to reply to your bias source with another bias source. When you provide me with evidence from a neutral source I will reply to it seriously.
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    (Original post by TSA)
    I was going to provide a reputable source but thought it was only fair to reply to your bias source with another bias source. When you provide me with evidence from a neutral source I will reply to it seriously.
    Hello.

    I would like to start by saying that you are by no means unique in your questioning of Islam, and the values which it seeks to uphold. Muslims in the West in particular are faced daily with conflicting paradigms relating to religion, culture, and perceived rationality. There is no doubt about this.

    One thing I have noticed is that you believe yourself to have been hard done by, in terms of the cards you have been dealt so far in your life. You must ask yourself therefore, are you really viewing your present situation in a broader context? Do you really think that your life is that bad? You may say that it's only relative to those around you, but that might just be indicative of the narrow minded approach you've taken to when viewing your own life. I don't think you realise how lucky you are to be able to study, to earn, to have a roof over your head, to have food in abundance. These amenities we take for granted are often seldom available over huge swathes of the world, yet somehow, these people retain their faith.
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    (Original post by Aurangzeb)
    Hello.

    I would like to start by saying that you are by no means unique in your questioning of Islam, and the values which it seeks to uphold. Muslims in the West in particular are faced daily with conflicting paradigms relating to religion, culture, and perceived rationality. There is no doubt about this.

    One thing I have noticed is that you believe yourself to have been hard done by, in terms of the cards you have been dealt so far in your life. You must ask yourself therefore, are you really viewing your present situation in a broader context? Do you really think that your life is that bad? You may say that it's only relative to those around you, but that might just be indicative of the narrow minded approach you've taken to when viewing your own life. I don't think you realise how lucky you are to be able to study, to earn, to have a roof over your head, to have food in abundance. These amenities we take for granted are often seldom available over huge swathes of the world, yet somehow, these people retain their faith.
    So because others have it worse, I'm not allowed to feel bad?
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    (Original post by TSA)
    So because others have it worse, I'm not allowed to feel bad?
    Of course you are, but if you put things into perspective you come to the realisation that what you perceive to be bad, really just isn't.
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    (Original post by fkh_95)
    I just wanted to know if you could refute any of the reasons why i left islam:

    By following basic philosophical reasoning i saw absolutely no reason to believe in the existence of the soul and found no evidence at all to support the claims of the existence of god. And by reading the Quran and other religious texts i realized that the overarching trend was one that exploited natural human emotions of fear about the unknown (i.e death, consciousness, existence. etc) for either a mutual acceptance of ignorance so that the anxiety of existentialism would not be a problem that the people would have to deal with. Or a more simple reason, a basic desire for power by those who profess to be their prophets.

    Furthermore, the exploitation of the supposed, "perfect words of god", is ironic as each person would perceive the Quran in their own individual way and would therefore entail that the words within it to be understood differently and therefore invoke different ideas to different people, hence rendering the perfection obsolete, as there cannot be multiple forms of the Perfect word.

    Another such imperfection which i feel is attributable to most religions is the narcissistic nature of a Omnipotent and Omniscient being. For instance, a good truly powerful being would have no need, first of all to call us into being, and then to tell us to worship him/her and instill such strict guidelines that stretch from the dangers of Homosexuality to the belief that we are the true believers of god. Such petty features do not appear to me to be the words of a truly divine entity. To instill in humanity such traits as sexual urges and then to call for them to be repressed for the sake of a God which is so powerful that it would seem he would be above the desire to even be acknowledged by his creations seems largely flawed and the reasoning,to me, non-existent

    Oh and on a side note, what do you think about the effect of quantum mechanics causing statistical uncertainties with relation to 'free will'?
    I just wanted to know if you could refute any of the reasons why i left islam:
    Salam, I'm not the one questioned but I hope you or the OP doesn't mind.

    By following basic philosophical reasoning i saw...
    I believe that if you want to test the claims of any religion you should first assume that the religion is the truth and then test the sense of its claims. This life is a test - so you should assume this before testing the claims of Islam.

    i saw absolutely no reason to believe in the existence of the soul and found no evidence at all to support the claims of the existence of god
    Islam has a very clear concept of the "Unseen" or the "Ghaib" which includes the angels and the soul. We need only faith to believe in this. On the other hand we have science exploring the matters of the observable universe but science won't cover the Unseen. One shouldn't disbelieve in God because there is no evidence for the Unseen, that's a poor reason. As to the soul the Quran states clearly:

    And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, "The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little. 17:85

    So why judge the truth of Islam by the existence of the soul when according to Islam it is beyond our knowledge?

    And by reading the Quran and other religious texts i realized that the overarching trend was one that exploited natural human emotions of fear about the unknown (i.e death, consciousness, existence. etc) for either a mutual acceptance of ignorance so that the anxiety of existentialism would not be a problem that the people would have to deal with
    Islam is a broad religion and it has to appeal to a lot of different people from different cultures with different ways of thinking. The fear of the Unseen (or the Pascal's Wager) - such as the Last Day - would appeal more to some people than others. If it doesn't appeal to you then don't make an issue out of it. Everything is in God's plan. Once you grow into Islam using other routes towards the truth then it may make sense. You shouldn't judge everything at once.

    Or a more simple reason, a basic desire for power by those who profess to be their prophets.
    Well I think this is controversial. What is important is that Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of God and not of Muhammad (pbuh). So when the Quran says "Obey Allah and His Messenger" it is God commanding us to follow the Quran and the Sunnah. Some prophets were kings such as David and Solomon. Others were not - Jesus for an example. As well as asking us to follow the Prophet the Quran has verses like this which makes something else also clear.

    Those are the ones whom Allah has guided, so from their guidance take an example. Say, "I ask of you for this message no payment. It is not but a reminder for the worlds." 6:90

    Say, "I do not ask of you for it any payment - only that whoever wills might take to his Lord a way." 25:57

    And you do not ask of them for it any payment. It is not except a reminder to the worlds. 12:104

    Furthermore, the exploitation of the supposed, "perfect words of god", is ironic as each person would perceive the Quran in their own individual way and would therefore entail that the words within it to be understood differently and therefore invoke different ideas to different people, hence rendering the perfection obsolete, as there cannot be multiple forms of the Perfect word.


    Yes, the Quran is the Perfect Word of God in a sense. Do you think it is absurd for a Muslim to say that the Quran is the best of any evidence for God when something better would be the appearance of God himself? No - that beats the purpose of this life - where we are our witness to our faith and our works while being tested. Likewise when we say the Quran is perfect we don't mean it is like what you think it should be. The Quran acknowledged the possibility of false interpretations:

    It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding. 3:7

    Another such imperfection which i feel is attributable to most religions is the narcissistic nature of a Omnipotent and Omniscient being. For instance, a good truly powerful being would have no need, first of all to call us into being, and then to tell us to worship him/her and instill such strict guidelines that stretch from the dangers of Homosexuality to the belief that we are the true believers of god. Such petty features do not appear to me to be the words of a truly divine entity.
    Yes he has no need. This is very clear in the Quran. but don't you think it is a blessing that we have life? Don't you think it is the best that we should show gratitude to a creator?

    To instill in humanity such traits as sexual urges and then to call for them to be repressed for the sake of a God which is so powerful that it would seem he would be above the desire to even be acknowledged by his creations seems largely flawed and the reasoning,to me, non-existent
    Well as said previosuly this life is a test and we are tested in different ways. Each and one of us has a reason to say "Why did God do this to me?". God is the best of Judges, at the end of the day.

    If these were truly the reasons you left Islam or religion I would daresay that these are weak reasons. I don't think that these were the only reasons. A quick talk with a knowledgeable person in the Deen would have cured you of these doubts.
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    (Original post by TSA)
    So because others have it worse, I'm not allowed to feel bad?
    From your responses you don't seem serious about remaining in Islam or you wouldn't be trying to oppose all the advise that the brothers/sisters are giving you. I went through a phase of questioning my faith a couple of years back for similar reasons: evolution & lack of objective evidence; but I have largely gotten over that. That is not to say that I do not have doubts sometimes, of course I do, but by and large I more or less have regained my faith entirely.

    My advice to you would be to stick it out for a few more years. Keep making dua to Allah that you regain your imaan (you never know, it seemingly worked for me). Don't make any rash decisions before then despite the doubts that you may currently have, I think most educated people go though this stage in their religious life. Inshallah, you will begin to appreciate faith for what it is and what it should be, something without the requirement for objective evidence. It may be that this low point in your imaan is temporary or a test from God, keep praying and retain the intention to believe and you will pull through, bi'ithnillah.

    Salaam.
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Salam, I'm not the one questioned but I hope you or the OP doesn't mind.



    I believe that if you want to test the claims of any religion you should first assume that the religion is the truth and then test the sense of its claims. This life is a test - so you should assume this before testing the claims of Islam.
    My primary concern is your opening statement ('I believe that if you want to test the claims of any religion you should first assume that the religion is the truth and then test the sense of its claims. '). This is an absurd statement because the reason for testing the senses of the claims is to identify whether it is the truth or not!

    That is the entire premise for cyclical reasoning. If you base your criticism on the assumption that a claim is the truth, then the criticism is obsolete by definition
    Let me be more rigorous for clarity's sake. If i assume Allah exists and the Quran is a divine book. Then i have to believe what's in it by default! And therefore i cannot criticize it because i've assumed that everything it says is true. See my point?




    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Islam has a very clear concept of the "Unseen" or the "Ghaib" which includes the angels and the soul. We need only faith to believe in this. On the other hand we have science exploring the matters of the observable universe but science won't cover the Unseen. One shouldn't disbelieve in God because there is no evidence for the Unseen, that's a poor reason. As to the soul the Quran states clearly:

    And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, "The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little. 17:85

    So why judge the truth of Islam by the existence of the soul when according to Islam it is beyond our knowledge?

    Because that's like telling a deaf person to enjoy, and dance to music.
    For us human beings there is no reason to believe in it and therefore why should we? Because a book claims to be the divine word? by that sense what do Muslims consider other religions to be any less reliable than their own? You cant disprove the existence of the Greek or Roman gods, or that Jesus Christ was the son of god? What im saying is that you cannot prove such a vague negative.

    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Islam is a broad religion and it has to appeal to a lot of different people from different cultures with different ways of thinking. The fear of the Unseen (or the Pascal's Wager) - such as the Last Day - would appeal more to some people than others. If it doesn't appeal to you then don't make an issue out of it. Everything is in God's plan. Once you grow into Islam using other routes towards the truth then it may make sense. You shouldn't judge everything at once.
    That's the entire point, it doesn't! The point of Islam was only to appeal to the working class or Arabia at the time specifically, as they were the largest group of people. By freeing slaves (although hypocritically), alleviating the pressures on woman (which for ITS TIME ONLY, was progressive but for the sole reasons of persuading followers) and the poor (for similar reasons as stated for women) he was able to amass a group of downtrodden individuals who so deeply desired a sense of justice against the middle and upper class, that they were willing to believe it would happen in the hereafter. That's a strong theme that runs through all religions, a cosmic sense of moralistic justice so as to excuse the harsh realities of this world as part of a "bigger plan" or "a test" as Muslims like to put it. This idea is a nice sentiment but is just a way of excusing injustices here and now! Pascal didn't factor in that ,specifically in the case for Muslims, a ridiculous amount of time would be spent conducting religious traditions, from prayer to fasting to making the pilgrimage. This would be considered a ridiculous waste of earthly time if god turned out not to exist wouldn't you agree?


    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Well I think this is controversial. What is important is that Muslims believe that the Quran is the word of God and not of Muhammad (pbuh). So when the Quran says "Obey Allah and His Messenger" it is God commanding us to follow the Quran and the Sunnah. Some prophets were kings such as David and Solomon. Others were not - Jesus for an example. As well as asking us to follow the Prophet the Quran has verses like this which makes something else also clear.

    Those are the ones whom Allah has guided, so from their guidance take an example. Say, "I ask of you for this message no payment. It is not but a reminder for the worlds." 6:90

    Say, "I do not ask of you for it any payment - only that whoever wills might take to his Lord a way." 25:57

    And you do not ask of them for it any payment. It is not except a reminder to the worlds. 12:104


    I've already addressed this issue in my first point in this post.


    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Yes, the Quran is the Perfect Word of God in a sense. Do you think it is absurd for a Muslim to say that the Quran is the best of any evidence for God when something better would be the appearance of God himself? No - that beats the purpose of this life - where we are our witness to our faith and our works while being tested. Likewise when we say the Quran is perfect we don't mean it is like what you think it should be. The Quran acknowledged the possibility of false interpretations:

    It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding. 3:7


    I did not say that the Quran isn't the closest representation of god without revealing himself entirely, although that is also a ludicrous statement. My point was that the standard of perfection is impossible for us to determine. For instance, if say your friend and you both thought the Quran was the perfect word of God. But he/she believed that the veil wasn't essential according to the Quran where as you did. Whose version of the Quran is perfect? Because whether the words are "perfect" or not, the interpretation is the only thing that matters, and that vary's by both the individual and time.

    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Yes he has no need. This is very clear in the Quran. but don't you think it is a blessing that we have life? Don't you think it is the best that we should show gratitude to a creator?



    Well as said previosuly this life is a test and we are tested in different ways. Each and one of us has a reason to say "Why did God do this to me?". God is the best of Judges, at the end of the day.

    If these were truly the reasons you left Islam or religion I would daresay that these are weak reasons. I don't think that these were the only reasons. A quick talk with a knowledgeable person in the Deen would have cured you of these doubts.
    Accommodated for these some what repeated points above.No, not a blessing in the sense that i need to focus my blessing on an invisible entity as opposed to nature itself. I lived in a Muslim country for 14 years, studied the Quran daily during 6 of those, at school and at home. I have read the Quran completely over 10 times with the translation. I have spoken to many Imams and Islamic Scholars on these topics and they were stunned, some even prevented me from joining in discussions because 'i was putting doubts in the other students' according to what the scholars told my parents. But still i believed until about a year ago when i realized that i couldn't lie to myself anymore. Check my previous TSR posts! and see how much i used to try and defend islam as you are now.
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Salam, I'm not the one questioned but I hope you or the OP doesn't mind.



    Islam is a broad religion and it has to appeal to a lot of different people from different cultures with different ways of thinking. The fear of the Unseen (or the Pascal's Wager) - such as the Last Day - would appeal more to some people than others. If it doesn't appeal to you then don't make an issue out of it. Everything is in God's plan. Once you grow into Islam using other routes towards the truth then it may make sense. You shouldn't judge everything at once.


    .
    islam doesnt and should have to appeal to any differnet cultures - you only need to observe islamic rituals to see they are continuations of arabic tradition and culture. in terms of structure of the religion, you can simply look at Christianity and see how islam has played follow the leader - ie christianity had jesus, islam had mohammed, christianity had the bible, islam the quran. Apostles and Sahahba, gospels and hadith, the Popes and the Caliphs - and so on and so forth. in fact even today when there is some discussion about islams relevance to modern issues, often muslims quote points that evangelical christian researchers used to try and put forward during the 1960s and 70s.
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    (Original post by fkh_95)
    My primary concern is your opening statement ('I believe that if you want to test the claims of any religion you should first assume that the religion is the truth and then test the sense of its claims. '). This is an absurd statement because the reason for testing the senses of the claims is to identify whether it is the truth or not!

    That is the entire premise for cyclical reasoning. If you base your criticism on the assumption that a claim is the truth, then the criticism is obsolete by definition
    Let me be more rigorous for clarity's sake. If i assume Allah exists and the Quran is a divine book. Then i have to believe what's in it by default! And therefore i cannot criticize it because i've assumed that everything it says is true. See my point?







    Because that's like telling a deaf person to enjoy, and dance to music.
    For us human beings there is no reason to believe in it and therefore why should we? Because a book claims to be the divine word? by that sense what do Muslims consider other religions to be any less reliable than their own? You cant disprove the existence of the Greek or Roman gods, or that Jesus Christ was the son of god? What im saying is that you cannot prove such a vague negative.



    That's the entire point, it doesn't! The point of Islam was only to appeal to the working class or Arabia at the time specifically, as they were the largest group of people. By freeing slaves (although hypocritically), alleviating the pressures on woman (which for ITS TIME ONLY, was progressive but for the sole reasons of persuading followers) and the poor (for similar reasons as stated for women) he was able to amass a group of downtrodden individuals who so deeply desired a sense of justice against the middle and upper class, that they were willing to believe it would happen in the hereafter. That's a strong theme that runs through all religions, a cosmic sense of moralistic justice so as to excuse the harsh realities of this world as part of a "bigger plan" or "a test" as Muslims like to put it. This idea is a nice sentiment but is just a way of excusing injustices here and now! Pascal didn't factor in that ,specifically in the case for Muslims, a ridiculous amount of time would be spent conducting religious traditions, from prayer to fasting to making the pilgrimage. This would be considered a ridiculous waste of earthly time if god turned out not to exist wouldn't you agree?




    I've already addressed this issue in my first point in this post.




    I did not say that the Quran isn't the closest representation of god without revealing himself entirely, although that is also a ludicrous statement. My point was that the standard of perfection is impossible for us to determine. For instance, if say your friend and you both thought the Quran was the perfect word of God. But he/she believed that the veil wasn't essential according to the Quran where as you did. Whose version of the Quran is perfect? Because whether the words are "perfect" or not, the interpretation is the only thing that matters, and that vary's by both the individual and time.



    Accommodated for these some what repeated points above.No, not a blessing in the sense that i need to focus my blessing on an invisible entity as opposed to nature itself. I lived in a Muslim country for 14 years, studied the Quran daily during 6 of those, at school and at home. I have read the Quran completely over 10 times with the translation. I have spoken to many Imams and Islamic Scholars on these topics and they were stunned, some even prevented me from joining in discussions because 'i was putting doubts in the other students' according to what the scholars told my parents. But still i believed until about a year ago when i realized that i couldn't lie to myself anymore. Check my previous TSR posts! and see how much i used to try and defend islam as you are now.
    My primary concern is your opening statement ('I believe that if you want to test the claims of any religion you should first assume that the religion is the truth and then test the sense of its claims. '). This is an absurd statement because the reason for testing the senses of the claims is to identify whether it is the truth or not!

    That is the entire premise for cyclical reasoning. If you base your criticism on the assumption that a claim is the truth, then the criticism is obsolete by definition
    Let me be more rigorous for clarity's sake. If i assume Allah exists and the Quran is a divine book. Then i have to believe what's in it by default! And therefore i cannot criticize it because i've assumed that everything it says is true. See my point?
    No, I don't. You should assume that the Quran is the word of God and then see if it makes sense. You could criticize it. That's how you test the claims of any religion. Most religions demand faith, so you assume faith and then test it out. Somewhat like a proof by contradiction.

    For us human beings there is no reason to believe in it and therefore why should we? Because a book claims to be the divine word? by that sense what do Muslims consider other religions to be any less reliable than their own? You cant disprove the existence of the Greek or Roman gods, or that Jesus Christ was the son of god? What im saying is that you cannot prove such a vague negative.
    It's all subjective - by believing and accepting the Quran as the word of God then one can prove for himself that these are of falsehood. Islam is the only religion along with Judaism , afaik, to preach the existence of one God. For me it makes sense.

    That's the entire point, it doesn't! The point of Islam was only to appeal to the working class or Arabia at the time specifically, as they were the largest group of people. By freeing slaves (although hypocritically), alleviating the pressures on woman (which for ITS TIME ONLY, was progressive but for the sole reasons of persuading followers) and the poor (for similar reasons as stated for women) he was able to amass a group of downtrodden individuals who so deeply desired a sense of justice against the middle and upper class, that they were willing to believe it would happen in the hereafter. That's a strong theme that runs through all religions, a cosmic sense of moralistic justice so as to excuse the harsh realities of this world as part of a "bigger plan" or "a test" as Muslims like to put it. This idea is a nice sentiment but is just a way of excusing injustices here and now!
    Wow, no - that's your opinion. The Quran always links the prophethood of Muhammad with the previous Prophets. Islam wasn't invented there and then for some worldly cause. Would you say the same thing for all the previous prophets?

    Pascal didn't factor in that ,specifically in the case for Muslims, a ridiculous amount of time would be spent conducting religious traditions, from prayer to fasting to making the pilgrimage. This would be considered a ridiculous waste of earthly time if god turned out not to exist wouldn't you agree?
    Well you're assuming it is a burden which it would be if you don't believe. Even if I assume that God does not exist still it would not seem a ridiculous waste of time. Each of the traditions has some worldly benefit - but with the belief in God these takes centre-stage and it is not a burden at all. On the other hand if God exists then for you is a great loss. And if God doesn't exist and there's no afterlife - I would have a pretty daunting time to explain the phenomenon of religion.

    I did not say that the Quran isn't the closest representation of god without revealing himself entirely, although that is also a ludicrous statement. My point was that the standard of perfection is impossible for us to determine. For instance, if say your friend and you both thought the Quran was the perfect word of God. But he/she believed that the veil wasn't essential according to the Quran where as you did. Whose version of the Quran is perfect? Because whether the words are "perfect" or not, the interpretation is the only thing that matters, and that vary's by both the individual and time.
    You didn't seem to have read that verse properly. It states "and no one knows it's true interpretation except Allah". The Quran is perfect but the interpretations of it won't necessary be. (and that verse makes it clear that interpretations will vary depending on the whims and fancies of the interpreter). This cannot be avoided. I think it is a blessing as well as a severe test.

    Accommodated for these some what repeated points above.No, not a blessing in the sense that i need to focus my blessing on an invisible entity as opposed to nature itself. I lived in a Muslim country for 14 years, studied the Quran daily during 6 of those, at school and at home. I have read the Quran completely over 10 times with the translation. I have spoken to many Imams and Islamic Scholars on these topics and they were stunned, some even prevented me from joining in discussions because 'i was putting doubts in the other students' according to what the scholars told my parents. But still i believed until about a year ago when i realized that i couldn't lie to myself anymore. Check my previous TSR posts! and see how much i used to try and defend islam as you are now.
    Well you seem to assume that a believer has to be 100% in understanding all the matters, and then if he or she couldn't understand they should work upwards and prove to themselves that everything or most of it is false or illogical. I think that's something unwise because no believer has the basis to claim to be in need of understanding everything, when the Quran itself implies that everything needn't be clear, perhaps as a test for those who think they are too wise to fail.
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    (Original post by TSA)
    The doubts were present much earlier I think. I've always been pretty scientific with a strong interest in human biology so things such as evolution always fascinated me.
    Have you watched the new series 'Cosmos' by Neil deGrasse Tyson?

    If you're questioning things then that's always the right thing to do regardless of your current position. The best thing to do is ask questions and think for youself rather than accept what others say without thought, Neil deGrasse Tyson even admits that this applies to him too.

    The thing about listening to muslim lectures is that they are trying to sell you something, it's the same in debates and lectures for other view points. So instead of doing that research the facts and find out yourself without somebody leading you.

    I'm a non-religious Humanist, I don't eat meat at all and I don't drink. Not because I believe in any scripture but because of my own decisions, alchohol is bad for your liver and meat is produced in unethical conditions. You're capable of making these choices yourself and even if you did drink would that really be that evil of a thing? No, it's just bad for your body like many of life's luxuries.

    Make sure to balance you research, watch a documentary on evolution and then watch one on creationism, which one on atheism and one on theism, one on ethics with religion and without etc.
    If you keep researching on a one sided perspective you will make yourself a pariah.

    Obviously, I myself have bias, your friends and family and yourself have bias. But you should have the critical thinking skills to take out the information and subtract the bias.
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    No, I don't. You should assume that the Quran is the word of God and then see if it makes sense. You could criticize it. That's how you test the claims of any religion. Most religions demand faith, so you assume faith and then test it out. Somewhat like a proof by contradiction.
    No, you don't need to believe something to criticize it. But you do need to criticize something to believe it. I was talking about a general rule for the belief in god. If you want me to make assumptions about the Quran providing i assume its true, then CYCLICAL REASONING!

    Lets consider for ridiculous arguments sake, the inconsistencies about Noah's ark:
    1. Animals, both predators and prey, living in perfect harmony on the ark with no savagery at all?- let me guess, "God done it."
    2. All the animals travelling mass expanses of land back to their natural habitat leaving no trace along the way. i.e Kangaroos in Australia, but nowhere else, penguins in the antarctic etc."God done it."?
    3. The impossibility of fitting 17400 birds, 9000 mammals, 12 thousand reptiles, 5000 Amphibians and 2,000,000 insects. Many that are carnivorous and would therefore require each others meat!"God done it", am i right?
    4. Rising to 29,000 feet as there was no surface of land not covered therefore means subzero temperatures and a lack of sufficient oxygen means that all the animals including Noah would die.
    "God done it"

    You can do this for pretty much all Quranic stories. And yeah, you can claim Faith, but how in anyone's right mind is that enough?! That's just blatant stupidity.

    Don't you see that you're being fooled? Why would a god give you the power to rationalize and then commit the people that do to burn in hell for all of eternity because they respect reality over some indefensible claim?

    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)

    It's all subjective - by believing and accepting the Quran as the word of God then one can prove for himself that these are of falsehood. Islam is the only religion along with Judaism , afaik, to preach the existence of one God. For me it makes sense.
    Why do you believe it though, there has be some semblance of logic in you're claims ? Am i wrong in suggesting that you're from a Muslim family? You dont think that the only reason you believe it is because you were grown into it and told it was the truth?

    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Wow, no - that's your opinion. The Quran always links the prophethood of Muhammad with the previous Prophets. Islam wasn't invented there and then for some worldly cause. Would you say the same thing for all the previous prophets?
    There is pretty much no evidence for most of the prophets. The only assumptions are drawn from the Quran and other fables such as the bible. There is no proof they ever existed so that argument is invalid.

    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Well you're assuming it is a burden which it would be if you don't believe. Even if I assume that God does not exist still it would not seem a ridiculous waste of time. Each of the traditions has some worldly benefit - but with the belief in God these takes centre-stage and it is not a burden at all. On the other hand if God exists then for you is a great loss. And if God doesn't exist and there's no afterlife - I would have a pretty daunting time to explain the phenomenon of religion.

    So what you're saying is that if i could disprove the existence of god (despite the fact that you cant prove a negative, as that can only occur by disproving an infinite number of possibilities) that you'd still see reason in them?

    Hajj for example can cause serious health risks as it allows for international contagion which was largely responsible for the upsurge in Polio after it was so close to being eradicated. You think mass international unhygienic situations like that are sane? Tell that to the family members of the paralyzed victims of Polio.

    And you wouldn't have 'a daunting time to explain the phenomenon of religion' because you wouldn't exist in that scenario... Even if you did, how does the fact religon exists prove the existence of god?


    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    You didn't seem to have read that verse properly. It states "and no one knows it's true interpretation except Allah". The Quran is perfect but the interpretations of it won't necessary be. (and that verse makes it clear that interpretations will vary depending on the whims and fancies of the interpreter). This cannot be avoided. I think it is a blessing as well as a severe test.
    So because Allah said it was the perfect book, it is the perfect book, therefore divine, therefore Allah is real. You see how inconsistent the argument is. You see how you reverted to "the test" argument? Its such a typical thoughtless answer to things.


    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Well you seem to assume that a believer has to be 100% in understanding all the matters, and then if he or she couldn't understand they should work upwards and prove to themselves that everything or most of it is false or illogical. I think that's something unwise because no believer has the basis to claim to be in need of understanding everything, when the Quran itself implies that everything needn't be clear, perhaps as a test for those who think they are too wise to fail.
    No not everything, but something! Something outside of the argument of only faith. Why would god who gave us Akal the ability to be rational, want us to not to use it and just accept everything that reality throws at us and claim blissful ignorance? Again you just said that believers don't need everything to be clear because the Quran says so... Dont you see that's such a self-full-filling prophecy?
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    (Original post by KrisCussans)
    Have you watched the new series 'Cosmos' by Neil deGrasse Tyson?

    If you're questioning things then that's always the right thing to do regardless of your current position. The best thing to do is ask questions and think for youself rather than accept what others say without thought, Neil deGrasse Tyson even admits that this applies to him too.

    The thing about listening to muslim lectures is that they are trying to sell you something, it's the same in debates and lectures for other view points. So instead of doing that research the facts and find out yourself without somebody leading you.

    I'm a non-religious Humanist, I don't eat meat at all and I don't drink. Not because I believe in any scripture but because of my own decisions, alchohol is bad for your liver and meat is produced in unethical conditions. You're capable of making these choices yourself and even if you did drink would that really be that evil of a thing? No, it's just bad for your body like many of life's luxuries.

    Make sure to balance you research, watch a documentary on evolution and then watch one on creationism, which one on atheism and one on theism, one on ethics with religion and without etc.
    If you keep researching on a one sided perspective you will make yourself a pariah.

    Obviously, I myself have bias, your friends and family and yourself have bias. But you should have the critical thinking skills to take out the information and subtract the bias.
    Thanks I appreciate the advice. I will look the lectures up when I'm free. I've seen some of his old lectures and debates and how found them pretty interesting and funny.
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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Salam, I'm not the one questioned but I hope you or the OP doesn't mind.



    Islam is a broad religion and it has to appeal to a lot of different people from different cultures with different ways of thinking. The fear of the Unseen (or the Pascal's Wager) - such as the Last Day - would appeal more to some people than others. If it doesn't appeal to you then don't make an issue out of it. Everything is in God's plan. Once you grow into Islam using other routes towards the truth then it may make sense. You shouldn't judge everything at once.


    .
    islam doesnt and should have to appeal to any differnet cultures - you only need to observe islamic rituals to see they are continuations of arabic tradition and culture. in terms of structure of the religion, you can simply look at Christianity and see how islam has played follow the leader - ie christianity had jesus, islam had mohammed. christianity had the bible, islam the quran. Apostles and Sahahba, gospels and hadith. the Popes and the Caliphs - and so on and so forth. in fact even today when there is some discussion about islams relevance to modern issues, often muslims quote points that evangelical christian researchers used to try and put forward during the 1960s and 70s.
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    (Original post by TSA)
    As even I can get up a random website refuting pretty much all of those

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific...the_Qur&#39;an

    I could memorise a book of poetry that is the same length as the Quran in two years, if I took the same approach I did when I memorised the Quran.
    I've seen that wiki page already, they all have answers and some of them dont even make sense (the so called errors). Dont you think many muslims have seen that and yet their faith is strong?

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    (Original post by TSA)
    Bit of background.

    Come from a very strict ultra-conservative south Asian Muslim family
    I've memorised the the Qur'an cover to cover
    I'm 19 living away from home term-time (currently at home - fasting)
    Abstain from pork, ham and alcohol and only eat halal meat.
    Do have a non-Muslim girlfriend
    Pray and fast regularly

    Anyway got to go away for a bit so I'll answer the questions when I get back.
    Do you yourself or Muslims (from the understandings from the Qur'an) believe that God is a person or that God is not a person? Also, have you ever heard the name for God that is Krishna?
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    Btw how did you memorise the Quran e.g. what was your method?

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    (Original post by Kalindi)
    Do you yourself or Muslims (from the understandings from the Qur'an) believe that God is a person or that God is not a person? Also, have you ever heard the name for God that is Krishna?
    I believe God is not a person, not a human anyway, but a higher being. Yes, I think Krishna is like a version of Vishnu in Hinduism, something like that anyway.

    (Original post by SyedAreYouDumb)
    Btw how did you memorise the Quran e.g. what was your method?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I would wake up early morning pray for 30 minutes at home go to the mosque and pray for 1-1.5 hours, this was about 6am. I would just repeat my page or two that I was suppose to learn for the day over and over again. Then come home and go to school, finish and sit down to pray around 4pm go to mosque around 5pm to about 7.30pm. Where I would repeat it a more times, the teacher would then listen to me pray first of all to the pages of learning for that day and then everything in the chapter (Juz) up until the part that I know, occasionally my teacher would test me on a random (Juz) and from the ones I know and I would have to recite it.
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    Salaam, I suggest you read this book which discusses about evolution scientifically. I have a hard copy of this book and ive enjoyed reading it. It is a short book which i hope you could finish in less than an hour.
    http://www.harunyahya.com/en/Books/9...t-the-creation
 
 
 
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