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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You do realise that these missiles can go in directions other than straight up? And you do also realise that just because you can draw a front line on the map doesn't mean that all forces are on their side of the line? You also have to remember that thing called momentum, if that plane is travelling at 500mph+ at 30,000ft+ it isn't going to land directly below where it was hit, so you have to either work out where it was or get the flight data recorder to find out where.
    The only reason it won't wash is because they have no reason to fire anything unless it's to frame the separatists, not because it's impossible.
    Well all that can be resolved if and when (although nobody is holding their breath) the separatists hand over the black box to the proper authorities.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Well all that can be resolved if and when (although nobody is holding their breath) the separatists hand over the black box to the proper authorities.
    Believe it or not but the black box does not contain missile tracking capabilities.

    And who do you suggest are the proper authorities considering the current government is unelected and has not been recognised by the possessors of the black box?


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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Well all that can be resolved if and when (although nobody is holding their breath) the separatists hand over the black box to the proper authorities.
    Which they are perfectly willing to do, albeit via Russia. And to build on other points, they have a range of 140Km. Without even considering terminal velocities the debris will have taken 45s to fall to the ground, considering terminal velocities it will have been longer which gives plenty of time for it to travel further down range.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Well all that can be resolved if and when (although nobody is holding their breath) the separatists hand over the black box to the proper authorities.
    My guess is that Russians have already got hold of it.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It doesn't sound at all straightforward judging from Wikipedia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

    It also sounds as if it requires the presence of a Russian air defence brigade.
    So that's your brilliant argument? 'Because its so complicated to operate there is no one else except the Russians that could have done it'.

    :clap2:
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    (Original post by AlexKay99)
    So that's your brilliant argument? 'Because its so complicated to operate there is no one else except the Russians that could have done it'.

    :clap2:
    *because it looks so complicated to me
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    Has anyone noted the fact that Putin's plane which has a very similar colour scheme was flying just 30 mins before on the same route?
    My guess is that they were trying to shoot down his plane, therefore why would pro-Russians shoot down Putin?
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    (Original post by AlexKay99)
    So that's your brilliant argument? 'Because its so complicated to operate there is no one else except the Russians that could have done it'.

    :clap2:
    No, but it raises the question of whether the separatists could do it entirely by themselves.

    If experts say the BUK is easy to operate, then so be it. Vesti, the Russian news outlet, confirmed several weeks ago that they had captured one. I was just curious if it needed technically skilled and trained personnel to operate it properly.

    (from the Telegraph live news feed just now)

    leg Tsarev, one of the leaders of the breakaway Donetsk People’s Republic, said the rebels did not shoot the plane down. “We don’t have weapons that can take down a plane from that altitude,” he told TIME, minutes after news of the crash broke.
    But only three weeks ago they had plenty of those weapons. At the end of June, the Russian state media had congratulated the rebels on their latest military acquisition – a set of Russian-made BUK missile launchers seized from a Ukrainian air force base. “The Donetsk resistance fighters have captured an anti-aircraft military station,” declared the Kremlin’s main television network Vesti, which has been cheering on the rebel fighters since the war in eastern Ukraine began this spring. “The skies above Donetsk will now be protected by the BUK surface-to-air missile complex,” said the headline on the channel’s website.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    *because it looks so complicated to me
    lol
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It doesn't sound at all straightforward judging from Wikipedia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

    It also sounds as if it requires the presence of a Russian air defence brigade.
    Well, maybe I oversimplified it. Nota guy off the couch.

    However, it is conceivable that some Russian separatists could have trained to fire it or an ex Ukrainian army vet.

    The other option is that the Russians have sent in their own crews to deal with the bombings by the Ukrainians.

    The older models with an inexperienced operator would be unable to tell the difference between a civilian or military aircraft.
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    (Original post by AlexKay99)
    Has anyone noted the fact that Putin's plane which has a very similar colour scheme was flying just 30 mins before on the same route?
    My guess is that they were trying to shoot down his plane, therefore why would pro-Russians shoot down Putin?
    RT started out with that story, but they are downplaying it now, as Putin's plane in fact did not pass over that way.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    No, but it raises the question of whether the separatists could do it entirely by themselves.

    If experts say the BUK is easy to operate, then so be it. Vesti, the Russian news outlet, confirmed several weeks ago that they had captured one. I was just curious if it needed technically skilled and trained personnel to operate it properly.
    If they had it for several weeks I should hope they know how to use them, not least because they should have also procured training documentation and/or operations manuals. And you would not believe how easy it is to get these documents online.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    No, but it raises the question of whether the separatists could do it entirely by themselves.

    If experts say the BUK is easy to operate, then so be it. Vesti, the Russian news outlet, confirmed several weeks ago that they had captured one. I was just curious if it needed technically skilled and trained personnel to operate it properly.

    (from the Telegraph live news feed just now)

    leg Tsarev, one of the leaders of the breakaway Donetsk People’s Republic, said the rebels did not shoot the plane down. “We don’t have weapons that can take down a plane from that altitude,” he told TIME, minutes after news of the crash broke.
    But only three weeks ago they had plenty of those weapons. At the end of June, the Russian state media had congratulated the rebels on their latest military acquisition – a set of Russian-made BUK missile launchers seized from a Ukrainian air force base. “The Donetsk resistance fighters have captured an anti-aircraft military station,” declared the Kremlin’s main television network Vesti, which has been cheering on the rebel fighters since the war in eastern Ukraine began this spring. “The skies above Donetsk will now be protected by the BUK surface-to-air missile complex,” said the headline on the channel’s website.

    And if a Russian helps the Ukrainian side in shooting down a plane then he is no longer a pro-Russian separatist, is he?
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    (Original post by AlexKay99)
    Has anyone noted the fact that Putin's plane which has a very similar colour scheme was flying just 30 mins before on the same route?
    My guess is that they were trying to shoot down his plane, therefore why would pro-Russians shoot down Putin?
    Yes a newspaper noticed that and then the story was rebutted by RT.

    http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Which they are perfectly willing to do, albeit via Russia. And to build on other points, they have a range of 140Km. Without even considering terminal velocities the debris will have taken 45s to fall to the ground, considering terminal velocities it will have been longer which gives plenty of time for it to travel further down range.
    News agencies are already reporting that the black boxes have been handed to the FSB and therefore to Russia. This is a breach of the international conventions on treatment of black boxes.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Well all that can be resolved if and when (although nobody is holding their breath) the separatists hand over the black box to the proper authorities.
    Black box won't give you much data other than showing massive system failures and altitude drop.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Yes a newspaper noticed that and then the story was rebutted by RT.

    http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/
    Oh right thanks, these reports come in so fast.
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    (Original post by VeniViciVidi)
    Black box won't give you much data other than showing massive system failures and altitude drop.
    It would show the position and speed of the aircraft at the time when it was shot down. This would help to refute the RT/Kremlin propaganda that it was the Ukrainian government who shot it down, which is why Russia has illegally sequestered the black box.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    News agencies are already reporting that the black boxes have been handed to the FSB and therefore to Russia. This is a breach of the international conventions on treatment of black boxes.
    And anybody cares because? The international community isn't recognising the separatists anyway.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It would show the position and speed of the aircraft at the time when it was shot down. This would help to refute the RT/Kremlin propaganda that it was the Ukrainian government who shot it down, which is why Russia has illegally sequestered the black box.
    And the likelihood that it is over 140K m behind the lines is slim
 
 
 
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