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Congratulations to the Greek left! The movement against austerity.... Watch

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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Modern Germany is not the Third Reich and at any rate, i'd say 70 years is more than enough time to let it pass. Greece has no more right than Africa does to Britain.
    Actually, legally, modern Germany has accepted responsibility for the actions of Nazi Germany and has often paid reparations and done other things, particularly in relation to Jewish people.

    The situation regarding the Greek forced loan is interesting, as that never was settled but Germany did settle other forced Nazi loans in the 50s, 60s and 70s, in particular those from France and Holland.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Does anyone have an estimate of the total sum of actual damages that would be owed by Germany, if that were the standard and were applied to all countries and persons the German government harmed?

    I had thought that most countries settled for token sums or nothing in order to avoid a repeat of the effects of the Versailles reparations regime. I don't know the legal situation on whether further claims could be brought. Morally, it seems to me that Greece doesn't have an unreasonable case in its own right, but I suspect applying reparations claims universally would result in an impractically huge sum.
    The Yalta and Potsdam councils agreed not to impose Versailles-style massive reparations, but Germany has often paid out voluntary reparations and in addition of course they were heavily expropriated (some would say 'justly punished') by the Soviets after the war. Later on, Germany has given heavy payments to Israel and has also put large sums into the victims of slave labour in more recent years.

    The true figure would obviously be staggering - German actions led to the deaths of tens of millions of people, crippled entire countries and laid waste to much of Russia, Ukraine, Poland and other territories..
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The Yalta and Potsdam councils agreed not to impose Versailles-style massive reparations, but Germany has often paid out voluntary reparations
    As it has done to Greece.

    The true figure would obviously be staggering - German actions led to the deaths of tens of millions of people, crippled entire countries and laid waste to much of Russia, Ukraine, Poland and other territories..
    The whole problem with this is that Greece doesn't want equal treatment, it wants to re-open all the WWII settlement treaties going back to conferences held during the war itself by people who are now dead, in order to arrive at a fundamentally different settlement that would effectively force the Germans, almost none of whom are now responsible for NG, into slavery for a few years or perhaps decades.

    Their position isn't morally unreasonable but I would tend to agree with MatureStudent that pushing it as a serious solution to the current debt problems is idiotic to the point of childishness.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    As it has done to Greece.


    The whole problem with this is that Greece doesn't want equal treatment, it wants to re-open all the WWII settlement treaties going back to conferences held during the war itself by people who are now dead, in order to arrive at a fundamentally different settlement that would effectively force the Germans, almost none of whom are now responsible for NG, into slavery for a few years or perhaps decades.

    Their position isn't morally unreasonable but I would tend to agree with MatureStudent that pushing it as a serious solution to the current debt problems is idiotic to the point of childishness.
    I think the forced loan is a special case, there is no doubt that Germany has repaid state-to-state forced loans in full or almost in full in the case of other countries, that was not done for Greece for whatever reasons.

    I wasn't proposing it as a serious solution and MatureStudent was rubbishing the whole idea of German reparations and claiming that the case has no merit, both of which are either false or tendentious claims, given that at least part of the Greek case does have merit and that Germany often has settled claims.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I think the forced loan is a special case, there is no doubt that Germany has repaid state-to-state forced loans in full or almost in full in the case of other countries, that was not done for Greece for whatever reasons.
    afaik the loan was repaid but the Greeks objected that interest and/or inflation weren't taken into account sufficiently. Was this the case for the French etc. loans?

    I agree that a forced loan is somewhat different to a reparation.

    I wasn't proposing it as a serious solution and MatureStudent was rubbishing the whole idea of German reparations and claiming that the case has no merit, both of which are either false or tendentious claims, given that at least part of the Greek case does have merit and that Germany often has settled claims.
    The general position of the international community has been that Germany should not pay reparations.

    As I have said I think a strong moral case can be made against this position. I also do not know how solid it is in law, though as Germany is now fully sovereign to some extent it doesn't matter.

    And there have been some exceptions, in particular in the case of Israel, but even there, Germany has not repaid the expected lost earnings of six million Jews plus pain and suffering. Greece's treatment is more or less in line with how other countries were treated, rightly or wrongly.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Reparations were sorted out a long time ago.
    How so?
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    (Original post by anastas)
    How so?
    Why now? There's been 70 years.

    Greece was told to do one 18 months ago when they first came up with this hair brain idea. They'll be told to do one again.

    Can the UK claim money back from Greece for liberating it?
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Why now? There's been 70 years.

    Greece was told to do one 18 months ago when they first came up with this hair brain idea. They'll be told to do one again.

    Can the UK claim money back from Greece for liberating it?
    Why not now? If Germany had already compensated Greece on time, we wouldn't discuss about this now.
    The country which started the most monstrous war in modern history has not compensated a country which fought vigorously.
    The UK indeed helped Greece greatly during wartime but after the war was over, the UK government played a role for the Greek civil war to develop, what about that. With all due respect, the comparison is not valid, from my point of view it's not the same thing.
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    (Original post by anastas)
    Why not now? If Germany had already compensated Greece on time, we wouldn't discuss about this now.
    The country which started the most monstrous war in modern history has not compensated a country which fought vigorously.
    The UK indeed helped Greece greatly during wartime but after the war was over, the UK government played a role for the Greek civil war to develop, what about that. With all due respect, the comparison is not valid, from my point of view it's not the same thing.
    Greece has had 70
    Years to make a claim.

    It's acting like a child now. No Suprise whe you look at its recent behabiour though.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Greece has had 70
    Years to make a claim.

    It's acting like a child now. No Suprise whe you look at its recent behabiour though.
    If you don't mind me asking, what exactly do you mean by '' its recent behaviour '' ?
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    (Original post by anastas)
    If you don't mind me asking, what exactly do you mean by '' its recent behaviour '' ?
    Keeping quiet about WW2, telling lies to get into the eurozone, and then throwing a hissy fit at the country that's bailed it out saying that it doesn't want to pay the money back.
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    (Original post by anastas)
    Why not now? If Germany had already compensated Greece on time, we wouldn't discuss about this now.
    The country which started the most monstrous war in modern history has not compensated a country which fought vigorously.
    The UK indeed helped Greece greatly during wartime but after the war was over, the UK government played a role for the Greek civil war to develop, what about that. With all due respect, the comparison is not valid, from my point of view it's not the same thing.
    When did Greece raise its claim? Early 2015 seems a tad forgetfully late in the day...
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Why now? There's been 70 years.

    Greece was told to do one 18 months ago when they first came up with this hair brain idea. They'll be told to do one again.

    Can the UK claim money back from Greece for liberating it?
    Obviously not just as someone who saves you from a burning car can't sue you for the time and expense.

    This is not a strong argument against Greeks reparations from Germany.

    Greece has had 70
    Years to make a claim.
    They've been asserting the claim for a long time, just no one outside Greece noticed or cared.
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    (Original post by anastas)
    Why not now? If Germany had already compensated Greece on time, we wouldn't discuss about this now.
    The country which started the most monstrous war in modern history has not compensated a country which fought vigorously.
    The problem with this line of argument is that it didn't compensate any of Germany's other victims in this way either. This was an intentional policy designed to minimise resentment of the allies by Germany after the war and to enable Germany to become a useful part of the Western alliance itself. Greece has very much benefited from this policy whether it approved or not.

    Greece's assertion of a claim was ignored because the will of Greece quite reasonably was not allowed to override all the Great Powers' ideas of how to best ensure the safety of Europe in the second half of the twentieth century.

    And let's be serious: the timing of the claim isn't tactical, but the timing of the receipt certainly would be; if Greece had received this money in 1946 it would have long since been frittered away and Greece's 2015 debt burden would have been just as high.

    Greeks have a reasonable gripe with one and only one group of people: those Greeks who advocated for and enacted Euro membership. Unfortunately for the mass of people looking for foreign scapegoats, they will find this means the majority of the Greek public.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Obviously not just as someone who saves you from a burning car can't sue you for the time and expense.

    This is not a strong argument against Greeks reparations from Germany.


    They've been asserting the claim for a long time, just no one outside Greece noticed or cared.
    They asserted the claim for the first time last year. The German government told them to do one.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    They asserted the claim for the first time last year. The German government told them to do one.
    The loan claim has been in dispute since the war itself.

    I don't know if they have made a specific large new claim for war damages, but the trend at least is not new. In 2000 the Greek Supreme Court (not the executive) ruled that Germany should pay compensation for war crimes committed in Greece.



    The basic problem here is not that Greece has suddenly about-faced or even that Greece's claims are inherently unreasonable, but rather that Greece and even individual sub-divisions of the Greek state are trying to totally re-write the legal basis of the current world order for their own convenience. The most consistent feature (and folly) of the Greek approach throughout all this, which has been shared by all the self-identified Greek posters on this subject, is a totally unjustified and overbearing sense of self-importance. The allies could have decided to destroy Germany and bind it in debt-servitude for generations. They had the power to do so and they could have made a plausible moral case for doing so. But they chose not to and are not going to restart WWII now in order to patch a short term hole in the finances of a small country on the periphery of nowhere in particular.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    The loan claim has been in dispute since the war itself.

    I don't know if they have made a specific large new claim for war damages, but the trend at least is not new. In 2000 the Greek Supreme Court (not the executive) ruled that Germany should pay compensation for war crimes committed in Greece.



    The basic problem here is not that Greece has suddenly about-faced or even that Greece's claims are inherently unreasonable, but rather that Greece and even individual sub-divisions of the Greek state are trying to totally re-write the legal basis of the current world order for their own convenience. The most consistent feature (and folly) of the Greek approach throughout all this, which has been shared by all the self-identified Greek posters on this subject, is a totally unjustified and overbearing sense of self-importance. The allies could have decided to destroy Germany and bind it in debt-servitude for generations. They had the power to do so and they could have made a plausible moral case for doing so. But they chose not to and are not going to restart WWII now in order to patch a short term hole in the finances of a small country on the periphery of nowhere in particular.
    You're link doesn't say that at all.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    You're link doesn't say that at all.
    "Greece's highest court, the Areopag, ruled in 2000 that Germany must pay damages to Distomo's [relatives of people murdered by the Germans]."
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    "Greece's highest court, the Areopag, ruled in 2000 that Germany must pay damages to Distomo's [relatives of people murdered by the Germans]."
    Did Germany pay?

    Seems to still be a legal merry go round that isn't looking to good for the Greeks in the long term.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distomo_massacre
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Did Germany pay?
    Of course not. And they won't, because it would open the flood gates. But this is just another facet of the the-world-owes-us-a-living mentality that seems to pervade Greek culture. It's not just the Elgin Marbles. This is a people who are simply not willing to accept a good-enough and functional settlement to an ancient problem when there is the far more attractive alternative of screaming your head off at anyone who will listen about how you should get 100% your own way and to hell with what wider consequences it could have.

    The debt crisis hasn't created these demands it has just brought them to world attention, because people briefly started paying attention to Greece.
 
 
 
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