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    (Original post by nathan2k1)
    Before you even begin you want to set the right framework. 1st world / 3rd world? are these even technically correct terms, going back some years ago they were referred to as Less Economically Developed Countries ("LEDCs" or More Economically Developed Countries ("MEDCs" the notion that there is a 1st world and a 3rd world only gives spirit to us living on totally separate planets, which might inevitably please some people, but it simply isn't true.

    Second, you want to make sure your definition of feminism is correct - you have a proper playing field then and can answer the question.

    My personal answer to your question (or what I think it is) is yes; true feminism like many strives for equality has a positive impact on society and helps to maintain an appropriate balance between media control and people power. Without it, would it be much worse?. I mean, the majority are already wearing make-up made and advertised by men for example.

    Food for thought.
    Backward society is kinda relative.

    (Original post by nathan2k1)
    Before you even begin you want to set the right framework. 1st world / 3rd world? are these even technically correct terms, going back some years ago they were referred to as Less Economically Developed Countries ("LEDCs" or More Economically Developed Countries ("MEDCs" the notion that there is a 1st world and a 3rd world only gives spirit to us living on totally separate planets, which might inevitably please some people, but it simply isn't true.
    You overthought this.

    Ironically 1st world and 3rd world originated from the Cold War.

    1st world were countries aligned with NATO.
    2nd world were countries aligned with the communist bloc.
    3rd world were countries aligned with neither.

    It was because of the tendencies of conditions and living standards etc. usw. usf. did the terms "1st world countries" and "3rd world countries" arose.

    So I doubt even you had it correctly, though I apologise if you did.

    And you just gave the most cynical meaning and usage to those terms, and don't make assumptions about people.
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    I think that's a good thing - it's a topic which is gaining pace because men are realising injustices and double standards which exist. Will porbably take 5-10 years to even begin to make an impact in the real world though.
    what injustices and double standards?
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    (Original post by idontknowmedoyou)
    what injustices and double standards?
    Should I just copy and paste the whole thread?
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    Should I just copy and paste the whole thread?
    I have seen a million of these threads so never mind. I know what some of the 'injustices' are I was just asking for you're own opinion, don't matter now.
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    (Original post by idontknowmedoyou)
    I have seen a million of these threads so never mind. I know what some of the 'injustices' are I was just asking for you're own opinion, don't matter now.
    Take a look at some of the stats which are quoted on page 17 if you're interested... We barely hear about these issues in the news yet hear about 'sexism' towards women all the time. That is the main issue being discussed on this thread. But then we have the day to day double standards, the way that women can get away with behaving in ways which men just can't. If men behave in ways which women do then we are held to account for it. Almost as if we are held to higher standards - and that is by women.
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    Take a look at some of the stats which are quoted on page 17 if you're interested... We barely hear about these issues in the news yet hear about 'sexism' towards women all the time. That is the main issue being discussed on this thread. But then we have the day to day double standards, the way that women can get away with behaving in ways which men just can't. If men behave in ways which women do then we are held to account for it. Almost as if we are held to higher standards - and that is by women.
    Theres also things men can do that women can't get away with? Both sexes have inequalities.
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    (Original post by idontknowmedoyou)
    Theres also things men can do that women can't get away with? Both sexes have inequalities.
    If someone wants to lay those points out that it would be interesting to hear them. My belief is that women have things much, much easier these days despite the opposite being the widespread belief. And my point is that we simply do not even hear about the issues affecting men. Feminism has distorted everything so much that it is supposedly misogynistic for a man to talk about his rights.
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    (Original post by idontknowmedoyou)
    Theres also things men can do that women can't get away with? Both sexes have inequalities.
    I agree with that statement everyone has.
    The problem comes when people say we should ignore the problems certain groups have.
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    I haven't read all the replies to this thread, but a few people were saying women are equal to men in terms of rights and government policy. However, I think it's important to consider that although laws etc. may be passed, they are actually difficult to enforce, the Equal Pay Act and Sexual Discrimination Act being obvious examples, just because they were (and still are) the norm in the workplace and are difficult to regulate. Furthermore, even if women did have equal rights to men, feminism is needed to ensure these rights aren't lost - they can be gained for a period, thanks to the movement, but it can be a slippery grip. Moreover, rights and laws may SEEM fair but the government are good at keeping up appearances e.g. the definition of poverty was changed over 30 times in the 1980s and early 1990s to hide real poverty levels in the UK. Sexism is institutional and a lot of people fail to remember that. This being said, as a feminist, I think feminism is misrepresented in the UK, and therefore the need for actual feminists is increased. However, the need for feminism is greater in countries that are generally less developed, as it is more an issue of BASIC humans rights, which is obviously the place to start. Some may argue that because women now have the vote and roles have changed, feminism is no longer needed in developed countries - but consider how long ago the slave trade was abolished, yet there are such big issues regarding race in both developed and developing countries, namely police brutality. Hope this helped you to think about things a bit differently!
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    (Original post by elizahughes)
    I haven't read all the replies to this thread, but a few people were saying women are equal to men in terms of rights and government policy. However, I think it's important to consider that although laws etc. may be passed, they are actually difficult to enforce, the Equal Pay Act and Sexual Discrimination Act being obvious examples, just because they were (and still are) the norm in the workplace and are difficult to regulate. Furthermore, even if women did have equal rights to men, feminism is needed to ensure these rights aren't lost - they can be gained for a period, thanks to the movement, but it can be a slippery grip. Moreover, rights and laws may SEEM fair but the government are good at keeping up appearances e.g. the definition of poverty was changed over 30 times in the 1980s and early 1990s to hide real poverty levels in the UK. Sexism is institutional and a lot of people fail to remember that. This being said, as a feminist, I think feminism is misrepresented in the UK, and therefore the need for actual feminists is increased. However, the need for feminism is greater in countries that are generally less developed, as it is more an issue of BASIC humans rights, which is obviously the place to start. Some may argue that because women now have the vote and roles have changed, feminism is no longer needed in developed countries - but consider how long ago the slave trade was abolished, yet there are such big issues regarding race in both developed and developing countries, namely police brutality. Hope this helped you to think about things a bit differently!
    Personally I think feminism today has been overran by missandrist and it doesn't stand for what it used to, I know there are people like you who doesn't seem to be a crazy one screaming that everything is terrible racist, sexist etc. And that is what it seems to have become.

    Regarding equal pay what do you think of how it stands today?
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    If someone wants to lay those points out that it would be interesting to hear them. My belief is that women have things much, much easier these days despite the opposite being the widespread belief. And my point is that we simply do not even hear about the issues affecting men. Feminism has distorted everything so much that it is supposedly misogynistic for a man to talk about his rights.
    Well points can include...
    -On average two women a week are killed by a violent partner or ex-partner in the UK.
    -Up to 3 million women and girls across the UK experience rape, domestic violence, stalking, or other violence each year.
    -Almost 1 in 3 girls have experienced unwanted sexual touching at school.
    -36% of people believe that a woman should be held wholly or partly responsible for being sexually assaulted or raped if she was drunk and 26% believe this if she was in public wearing sexy or revealing clothes.
    -1 in 5 people think it would be acceptable in certain circumstances for a man to hit or slap his female partner in response to her being dressed in sexy or revealing clothing in public.
    -Only 77% of young men agree that having sex with someone who has said no is rape.
    -The full time gender pay gap is 10% , and the average part-time pay gap is 34.5%.
    -Up to 30,000 women are sacked each year simply for being pregnant and each year an estimated 440,000 women lose out on pay or promotion as a result of pregnancy.
    -Women make up only 17% board directors of FTSE 100 companies.
    -50% of women in survey of 327 reported experience of sex discrimination in the last 5 years and 23% had experienced sexual harassment in that period.

    Thats just a few points.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Personally I think feminism today has been overran by missandrist and it doesn't stand for what it used to, I know there are people like you who doesn't seem to be a crazy one screaming that everything is terrible racist, sexist etc. And that is what it seems to have become.

    Regarding equal pay what do you think of how it stands today?
    The movement definitely seems overran by misandrists on social media, just full of girls who concentrate purely on Free the Nipple, or young girls who haven't fully grasped the concept or researched it enough - very sad but it isn't helped by many men bashing feminism as well! There are actually a lot of reasonable feminists though, they just don't seem to get as angry on social media because they tend to be more rational, I find

    In terms of equal pay as it currently stands in the UK, I don't really think the problem lies with the fact that women are paid less than men per hour (which does actually occur and can be blamed on experience even if they are doing the same job, as I found at my old workplace). I think it's more a case of women finding it difficult to get past a certain position as men fill them all, e.g. I think women make up 13% of newspaper editors, even though subjects at school are very much gender separated, so surely you'd expect a much higher proportion. Therefore, due to issues such as maternity leave, women find it harder to progress and actually build a career (you can look up the glass ceiling if you want to know more) - you may also find interesting that in 2014, the UK slipped from being in the top 20 most equal in terms of gender pay gap (I think this is global) and I think the pay gap stands at around 15%. Essentially, it's all about economics. Managers (mostly men who don't have experience of being women) consider women as less profitable even if they don't plan to have children, because one day they could change their minds. There's also the pretence that women are naturally irrational and not suited to leadership roles. Which is ******** and totally not down to gender
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    (Original post by idontknowmedoyou)
    Well points can include...
    -On average two women a week are killed by a violent partner or ex-partner in the UK.
    -Up to 3 million women and girls across the UK experience rape, domestic violence, stalking, or other violence each year.
    -Almost 1 in 3 girls have experienced unwanted sexual touching at school.
    -36% of people believe that a woman should be held wholly or partly responsible for being sexually assaulted or raped if she was drunk and 26% believe this if she was in public wearing sexy or revealing clothes.
    -1 in 5 people think it would be acceptable in certain circumstances for a man to hit or slap his female partner in response to her being dressed in sexy or revealing clothing in public.
    -Only 77% of young men agree that having sex with someone who has said no is rape.
    -The full time gender pay gap is 10% , and the average part-time pay gap is 34.5%.
    -Up to 30,000 women are sacked each year simply for being pregnant and each year an estimated 440,000 women lose out on pay or promotion as a result of pregnancy.
    -Women make up only 17% board directors of FTSE 100 companies.
    -50% of women in survey of 327 reported experience of sex discrimination in the last 5 years and 23% had experienced sexual harassment in that period.

    Thats just a few points.
    Ok but you mentioned things which men can do which women can't get away with. The day to day sort of issues. Like one example I'll just throw out there is that there wouldn't be a version of the TV show 'Take me out' where 30 men all judge one woman on her looks. It would be 'sexist'. Ok, I'll give you another, men believe it or not these days can feel quite uncomfortable around other peoples children because society automatically deems that women are more 'trustworthy, caring etc etc' All complete nonsense of course but people never think of females being pedophiles or violent or anything like that. There was an article in the BBC last week which showed a naked man holding his naked son in the shower and it was widely labelled 'wrong' and 'creepy'. Suggestions of pedophilia they said. The same image of a naked mother and her naked daughter was considered 'beautiful' and 'loving'. Ok, one more, it is 'ok' to have all female gyms or indeed any kind of all female club. But have an all male golf club or an all male gym - sexism - all over the news. Ok, one more, last one I promise. Have you even seen the recent social experiments showing how FUNNY the general public (and especially women) find it to see a man suffer at the hands of domestic violence from a woman? If you haven't just look it up. I mean, I could literally go on and on about the double standards and the rude and often nasty behaviour which women display on a daily basis because they know that there won't be consequences for them as a woman, but I'd be here for hours. It would be interesting, genuinely to hear about the day to day double standards affecting women as I'm sure there are some, but I know for a fact there are just not as many because society protects women in a way that it doesn't protect men. Women are 'the fairer sex' after all. We very quickly hear about issues affecting women, men need to keep quiet, 'man up' and get on with it - and that comes from women,

    Now your stats, while there is some truth to some (not all) of them, they are just stats about issues which affect women which we hear about ALL the time. My problem and argument on this thread is that we simply don't hear about the issues affecting men. They are laughed at by feminists and laughed at and ignored by the media. I have provided examples of this. Given how seriously those issues affecting women are taken, it is not right that men do not get the same respect.
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    (Original post by elizahughes)
    I haven't read all the replies to this thread, but a few people were saying women are equal to men in terms of rights and government policy. However, I think it's important to consider that although laws etc. may be passed, they are actually difficult to enforce, the Equal Pay Act and Sexual Discrimination Act being obvious examples, just because they were (and still are) the norm in the workplace and are difficult to regulate. Furthermore, even if women did have equal rights to men, feminism is needed to ensure these rights aren't lost - they can be gained for a period, thanks to the movement, but it can be a slippery grip. Moreover, rights and laws may SEEM fair but the government are good at keeping up appearances e.g. the definition of poverty was changed over 30 times in the 1980s and early 1990s to hide real poverty levels in the UK. Sexism is institutional and a lot of people fail to remember that. This being said, as a feminist, I think feminism is misrepresented in the UK, and therefore the need for actual feminists is increased. However, the need for feminism is greater in countries that are generally less developed, as it is more an issue of BASIC humans rights, which is obviously the place to start. Some may argue that because women now have the vote and roles have changed, feminism is no longer needed in developed countries - but consider how long ago the slave trade was abolished, yet there are such big issues regarding race in both developed and developing countries, namely police brutality. Hope this helped you to think about things a bit differently!
    There is nothing wrong with feminism in itself. The trouble is that women were very happy to keep the advantages they did and do have over men (there have been many cited in this thread), add to that with feminism and then continue to argue that they are worse off than men while laughing off extremely serious issues which do affect men so much so that men's issues don't even get any airtime or media coverage. This of course just propogates the myth that women are somehow still oppressed and that men not only don't have all these issues but are actually 'privileged'. Frankly, from my point of view, modern feminism deserves a bad reputation and I hope it starts to get it. The feminists who say that they care about men's issues too seem to give very little focus to them. Feminism in non western countries is a completely different story that is where genuine oppression against women happens but unfortunately it's going to take a fair few religious wars before that changes anytime soon.
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    Ok but you mentioned things which men can do which women can't get away with. The day to day sort of issues. Like one example I'll just throw out there is that there wouldn't be a version of the TV show 'Take me out' where 30 men all judge one woman on her looks. It would be 'sexist'. Ok, I'll give you another, men believe it or not these days can feel quite uncomfortable around other peoples children because society automatically deems that women are more 'trustworthy, caring etc etc' All complete nonsense of course but people never think of females being pedophiles or violent or anything like that. There was an article in the BBC last week which showed a naked man holding his naked son in the shower and it was widely labelled 'wrong' and 'creepy'. Suggestions of pedophilia they said. The same image of a naked mother and her naked daughter was considered 'beautiful' and 'loving'. Ok, one more, it is 'ok' to have all female gyms or indeed any kind of all female club. But have an all male golf club or an all male gym - sexism - all over the news. Ok, one more, last one I promise. Have you even seen the recent social experiments showing how FUNNY the general public (and especially women) find it to see a man suffer at the hands of domestic violence from a woman? If you haven't just look it up. I mean, I could literally go on and on about the double standards and the rude and often nasty behaviour which women display on a daily basis because they know that there won't be consequences for them as a woman, but I'd be here for hours. It would be interesting, genuinely to hear about the day to day double standards of affecting women as I'm sure there are some, but I know for a fact there are just not as many because society protects women in a way that it doesn't protect men. Women are 'the fairer sex' after all.

    Now your stats, while there is some truth to some (not all) of them, they are just stats about issues which affect women which we hear about ALL the time. My problem and argument on this thread is that we simply don't hear about the issues affecting men. They are laughed at by feminists and laughed at and ignored by the media. I have provided examples of this. Given how seriously those issues affecting women are taken, it is not right that men do not get the same respect.
    I do think you raise some important points, as a lot of self-proclaimed feminists don't consider the issues of men, and they are definitely not talked about as much as they should. However, this makes them misandrists and not feminists - actual feminists are doing some important things for men, such as fighting for equality in the legal system for custody of children.

    I find it sad that your views on feminism are so negative. You have made generalisations about women's opinions on men's oppression, but I'd like to repeat that these are NOT feminists, these women are sexist and need to be educated, and they give feminism a bad name.

    However, I need to disagree with you on a few points. Although true that many of men's struggles are hidden, they do not suffer more than women in most aspects. And of course there are issues regarding women that are now being discussed, because women have never felt like they could speak out until the feminist movement spread - but this doesn't mean they don't also have hidden issues, which, as a man, you know little about. Personally, as a white middle class straight binary woman, I don't think I experience many of these, but I would definitely consider myself oppressed in comparison to a white middle class straight binary man. However, I think you need to look at feminism in the bigger picture, and how it helps people of colour, lower classes, and different sexualities and non-binary genders, and look into child marriage and acid attacks on poor women of colour in less developed countries.

    In reply to your comment about the media's perception of men - over 85% of newspaper editors are men. So you cannot blame women for that one. Also, many media outlets are oppressive to masses of groups of people, it is not purely men

    I'd also like to throw in a fact - black girls perform the best educationally in the UK, but are the most likely to be fired from a job within the first year. Just a reminder of how a lot of sexism is institutional and so harder to detect, amongst all genders

    You are absolutely right that men's issues aren't addressed enough, but I hope I helped you to learn something new
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    There is nothing wrong with feminism in itself. The trouble is that women were very happy to keep the advantages they did and do have over men (there have been many cited in this thread), add to that with feminism and then continue to argue that they are worse off than men while laughing off extremely serious issues which do affect men so much so that men's issues don't even get any airtime or media coverage. This of course just propogates the myth that women are somehow still oppressed and that men not only don't have all these issues but are actually 'privileged'. Frankly, from my point of view, modern feminism deserves a bad reputation and I hope it starts to get it. The feminists who say that they care about men's issues too seem to give very little focus to them. Feminism in non western countries is a completely different story that is where genuine oppression against women happens but unfortunately it's going to take a fair few religious wars before that changes anytime soon.
    Your assumption that all women feel that way is simply wrong. In fact, I've never actually met a woman who has laughed at a man's misfortune in terms of sexism (I know it does happen, but your perception is skewed). And what advantages do you think women have over men? I don't have time to read the whole thread and I want to know what you think. And you are suggesting that women are no longer oppressed, when you agreed with some of another post's statistics, and you need to consider developing countries, as well as sexual harassment and rape, as well as inequality in the workplace, in the UK. They are factually unequal. Also, modern feminism does have a bad name. Otherwise I would see no point in defending it. In fact, its bad name is so obvious when people like you genuinely think women use it as a way to laugh at men!
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    I agree, it has no place in the First World.
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    (Original post by anna__)
    Given the fact that in my first month of living in Cologne I had 6 derogotary comments (at least) made towards me and was even grabbed, and invited back to a random mans house whilst sat on the tube minding my own business, I do not think its pointless. At all. We live in such a backwards society.
    I think you need to call the police, Feminism wouldn't've helped you much.

    Oh please, how can you call our society "backwards" when, as a woman, you're allowed to dress how you want, have sex with who you want, get whatever job you want, vote, drive, etc... Basically everything a woman in the middle-east and Africa can't do, plus.


    Are your genitals still intact?
    Do you want someone to scratch your back every time you wake up?! Is that it?! Are you THAT entitled?!
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    (Original post by The Roast)
    I think you need to call the police, Feminism wouldn't've helped you much.

    Oh please, how can you call our society "backwards" when, as a woman, you're allowed to dress how you want, have sex with who you want, get whatever job you want, vote, drive, etc... Basically everything a woman in the middle-east and Africa can't do, plus.


    Are your genitals still intact?
    Do you want someone to scratch your back every time you wake up?! Is that it?! Are you THAT entitled?!
    Enough of the whole 'oh please', that's so patronising to a woman sharing her personal experience. And prevention is better than cure - feminism promotes the idea of not sexualising bodies and heavily advocates against sexual abuse in both developing and developed countries. She shouldn't need to call the police

    In terms of what women are allowed to do, yes, they are allowed to do those things. The problem is the lack of opportunity to do some of those things, although I don't think driving is one of women's biggest concerns to be honest. Namely, the glass ceiling in the workplace, and dressing how you want increases the chances of you being sexually harassed (although this shouldn't discourage women from being free to wear what they want, people need to stop sexualising other people).

    I do agree that feminism is needed more in developing countries. Although by just saying Africa and the Middle East, you're ignoring the growing class divide in the UK as well as the fact that it is quite ignorant to assume a continent and another huge region are made up of only poor people. Feminism is needed everywhere, in different magnitudes yes, but just because someone's experience is worse than yours, it doesn't make your experience any less valuable or worthy of attention

    Lastly, if the most a woman can want from life is to have intact genitals, then that is quite a miserable life to be living, don't you think?
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    (Original post by elizahughes)
    Enough of the whole 'oh please', that's so patronising to a woman sharing her personal experience. And prevention is better than cure - feminism promotes the idea of not sexualising bodies and heavily advocates against sexual abuse in both developing and developed countries. She shouldn't need to call the police

    In terms of what women are allowed to do, yes, they are allowed to do those things. The problem is the lack of opportunity to do some of those things, although I don't think driving is one of women's biggest concerns to be honest. Namely, the glass ceiling in the workplace, and dressing how you want increases the chances of you being sexually harassed (although this shouldn't discourage women from being free to wear what they want, people need to stop sexualising other people).

    I do agree that feminism is needed more in developing countries. Although by just saying Africa and the Middle East, you're ignoring the growing class divide in the UK as well as the fact that it is quite ignorant to assume a continent and another huge region are made up of only poor people. Feminism is needed everywhere, in different magnitudes yes, but just because someone's experience is worse than yours, it doesn't make your experience any less valuable or worthy of attention

    Lastly, if the most a woman can want from life is to have intact genitals, then that is quite a miserable life to be living, don't you think?
    Literally my response summed up. Thank you. You said that perfectly.
 
 
 
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