Niqab wearer asked to leave restaurant in Germany

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    (Original post by QE2)
    In this context, if they refused to remove their masks, then yes.
    The niqab does not harm others, its harmless, its not a weapon. It is worn by a minority of muslim women . It is their right, their choice.
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    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    'sharia should rule' sharia is subject to many interpretations, and most would disagree with the extreme version. Adultery and leaving islam- actually more related to slandering - criticising in a civilised manner of aspects in islam is not illegal, as islam has many interpretations of certain laws.-and in public, is a deterrence in Islamic law. If you look at the history this would become clear. Most muslims would agree with this because it acts as a deterrence.
    Most disingenuous.
    Sharia is only derived for those issues not specifically dealt with in the Quran and sunnah.

    Adultery and apostasy are specifically forbidden and liable to hudd punishments in the appropriate condition. It is only the application of punishment that is determined by scholars. Given the right (or wrong!) scholars, the punishment for adultery or apostasy could always be death.

    To claim that all those many millions of Muslims desire a version of sharia that never punishes anyone for any serious offence is simply nonsense. Especially when those same polls show high levels of support for death as the punishment for adultery and apostasy.

    It seems to me that you are just repeating arguments that you have heard used by scholars/imams as means of dealing with doubts amongst western/cultural Muslims. Basically, they are making stuff up to make Islam appear more acceptable to those who come across things they weren't taught in the mosque or home.

    What is your position on verse 4:34?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Ah yes, TellMAMA. The group that classifies a sign that said "Halal is barbaric" as an "Islamophobic atack".
    I'm sure they mean well.
    Ah now your going to ridicule every organisation you don't agree with, and refuse to read facts. Tell mama collects incidents of anti-Muslim hate crimes.
    It is not saying that is a islamaphobic attack, its simply giving the Islamic view. Which is to counter attack the 'halal is barbaric'.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    The issue with that poll was not the poll itself, but the way the results were portayed by the Sun.
    And there are many that conclusively show that there is a sizable minority of UK Muslims who support extremism. In some countries, they are in the majority.
    So you still think the sun poll was actually fact. And in some countries they are not in the majority.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Muslims cherry-picking interpretations of Islam to suit their agenda?
    Who would have thought it?

    But in the context of a population of 1.6 billion, those minorities amount to over 100 million. That's an awful lot of people who support ISIS, think that suicide bombings of civilian targets are justified, etc!
    Personally, I think that deliberately targetting civilians is never justified, even if it results in the deaths of known terrorist leaders. I guess that must just be my decadent kaffir morality showing through.
    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...dain-for-isis/
    MOST do not support isis. again in every country there s a minority of radicals, and it will grow if the west continues killing civilians and targeting muslims .
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    (Original post by QE2)
    :rofl:
    Have you actually read the Quran!?!
    yes I have read the quran, and a book cannot dictate what you think. you use your brain and free will to believe.
    And neither should we try.
    Increased levels of education, welfare and living standards will eventually lead to eligion being sidelined as an irrelevance. As it is to most northern Europeans.
    islam will never die, trust me.

    We know that this simply isn't true. The vast majority follow a religion because they are indoctrinated in childhood, and that indoctrination is hard to break, especially when the society you live in reinforces that indoctrination on a daily basis. This is why so few people change their religion on the basis of reasoned argument - unless it is to discard religion altogether.

    Then that can go for atheism. humans have brains, we have a choice. it is our choice to follow or not to follow. I am not indoctrinated I understand my religion. And your 'reasoned' arguments can be countered by a religious person.
    So, there is no instruction from Allah or Muhammad to cover the face?
    In which case, it is not a religious requirement. It is simply a piece of clothing, no different to a balaclava.
    Again, muslims hold many different interpretations, some believe it is, some don't. why is that so hard to understand? For some it is a requirement, others not.
    But atheists do not believe that they will be punished for not being an atheist. That is a big difference. It introduces the concept of coercion.
    Again, because ATHEISTS DONT BELIEVE IN GOD. simple.
    Example.
    A mugger holds a knife to your throat and says "I would like you to give me all your money, if you don't mind, but if you don't I will stab you in the neck".
    If you give him your money, was it your "free choice" to do so?
    That is not a good comparison, because Allah gives us free choice. That is why theres good and bad. Religion is not violence, theres not someone threatening you with a knife. muslims believe in the after life, muslims believe in God. if you don't believe in it don't. But people are not indoctrinated. Like people are not indoctrinated for being a Marxist.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Most disingenuous.
    Sharia is only derived for those issues not specifically dealt with in the Quran and sunnah.
    Sharia is mostly spiritual, financial, economical and political in some aspects.
    Adultery and apostasy are specifically forbidden and liable to hudd punishments in the appropriate condition. It is only the application of punishment that is determined by scholars. Given the right (or wrong!) scholars, the punishment for adultery or apostasy could always be death.
    It is a deterrence, if you look at history that becomes obvious.
    To claim that all those many millions of Muslims desire a version of sharia that never punishes anyone for any serious offence is simply nonsense. Especially when those same polls show high levels of support for death as the punishment for adultery and apostasy.
    Again support because it is a deterrence, and it works. simple. I am getting bored of this because we are going round and round in circles with you reoeating the same thing over and over again.

    It seems to me that you are just repeating arguments that you have heard used by scholars/imams as means of dealing with doubts amongst western/cultural Muslims. Basically, they are making stuff up to make Islam appear more acceptable to those who come across things they weren't taught in the mosque or home.
    No, one cannot make things up when there is evidence. Obviously there are scholars who offer differing views based on evidence. its not making things up, I suggest you go listen to some Islamic lectures.
    What is your position on verse 4:34?
    http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/...n_(P1179).html
    And listen to lecture by Yusuf estes, simply the 'beat' like a feather, using a feather.

    Anyway, I think our conversation Is done, this will never end. I will say this, why don't you look at the islamic perspective. Because clearly you don't and are bias in thinking. If I continue replying to your dozens of comments I will be 83 and I have a life. There is so use as this conversation will only go round and round.
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    (Original post by nutz99)
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...icle-1.2288989

    It'll happen again.


    Sort of shot yourself in the foot with that one. One that stands out is Turkey with 8% of the population supporting ISIS. A mere 6 million from a country that wants to join the EU. Frightening!
    Again just one attack, does not mean every women who wears a burka is a security threat. I have already repeated myself hundreds of times, to you, to others. there is a large minority in every country that believes in ridiculous things. Are you going to ban western clothes now when someone detonates a bomb wearing jeans or something?
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    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    Muslims are well integrated, they have jobs, contribute to society etc.
    Crass generalisation. Some do, some don't. Those who insist on wearing the niqab/hijab (bearing in mind that it is not a religious requirement and nobody if forcing them to) are clearly not integrating into European society.

    They also have religious freedom which they don't have to abandon to 'integrate' one can practice their religion and contribute to society. A niqab does not stop one from doing so, I know many muslim women who wear the niqab and they go to classes, have jobs etc.
    But as the niqab/burqa is not a religious requirement, and deliberately wearing a mask so people who are not member of your group can't see your face is obviously not the actions of someone who is trying to integrate with the society in which they live - I'm really not sure what your argument is.
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    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    But people are not indoctrinated.
    Are you seriously trying to claim that Moslem parents do not bring up their children from birth to be Moslems, that they do not send them to the mosque and that they are not encouraged to recite and read the Koran? Are you saying that this is all left until the children are old enough to make their own decisions about religions (after 16, say)? Are you saying that the parents would be happy for their children to become atheists and there is no pressure on them to be Moslems?

    Because, if you are, you are lying.

    This is the very definition of religious indoctrination.
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    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    I have not stated it is a religious requirement, I have said some women simply choose to do so because either they see it as a religious requirement or they see it as gaining extra rewards.
    You seem confused.
    If some women wear it because they see it as a religious requirement, then it is not a free choice, by definition!

    Muslims who choose to wear it simply because they want to, because they believe it is better to, it is their free will.
    But what reason is there for wearing it in a northern European country, if not because they see it as a religious requirement (seeing it as a means of improving their fate in the afterlife is essentially the same thing)?

    Now you are getting ridiculous, ofcourse muslims obey Allah, muslims do not obey man, only Allah.
    So, you need to be clear here, because it is vital in order to know what your argument is. You seem to be taking both positions depending on the post you are responding to.
    Does Allah require or recommend Muslim women to cover their face, or not?
    Simple question requiring only a simple answer.

    Allah does not command evil things, only for the best.
    That is a whole new subject!
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    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    The niqab does not harm others, its harmless, its not a weapon. It is worn by a minority of muslim women . It is their right, their choice.
    Of course it is. Except in those situations where eople are required to remove other face coverings.

    Also, the swastika "does not harm others, its harmless, its not a weapon. It is worn by a minority of fascists". Do you think it is unreasonable for owners of businesses that rely on social gatherings of a variety of people, to request wearers to remove it if they want to use that service?
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    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    Ah now your going to ridicule every organisation you don't agree with, and refuse to read facts. Tell mama collects incidents of anti-Muslim hate crimes.
    Yes, and one actual example of an "anti-Muslim hate crime" cited by TellMAMA was a sign saying "Halal is barbaric".
    The position that the slaughter of animal without pre-stunning is barbaric cannot be described as an "anti-Muslim hate crime", unless you are accusing the RSCPA, British Veterinary Association, Compassion in World Farming and others, of being "anti-Muslim hate groups"!

    It is not saying that is a islamaphobic attack, its simply giving the Islamic view. Which is to counter attack the 'halal is barbaric'.
    And what is the "Islamic view" that counters the arguments of virtually all the animal welfare groups in the world?
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    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    So you still think the sun poll was actually fact.
    It was not a "Sun poll". It was a poll conducted by Survation (a top market research company) on behalf of the Sun. And it actually happened. It is actually fact.

    The issue the press complaints authority has was the way the results were presented by the Sun. They said the headline "1 in 5 Brit Muslims have sympathy for jihadis" was misleading because the survey did not mention any specific group. It simply asked if the respondent had sympathy for "young Muslims who leave the UK to join fighters in Syria" (to which one in five Muslims questioned did indeed agree).

    Obviously, that question could apply to any of the many non-Islamist groups that UK Muslims are travelling to Syria to join, I'm sure you'll agree.

    And in some countries they are not in the majority.
    As I said.
    And in some countries they are.
    Regardless, the Pew survey still shows that about 100 million Muslims worldwide have a "favourable impression of ISIS". When we look at "don't know"s, that number trebles (they are the majority in Pakistan).
    I would suggest that "not knowing" whether your views of ISIS are favourable or unfavourable, speaks volumes.
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    France burkini ban: Australian woman forced off Riviera beach - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-37382318

    I genuinely don't think I've ever heard of a more attention seeking person in my life.

    Bahaha.
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    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...dain-for-isis/
    MOST do not support isis. again in every country there s a minority of radicals, .
    I never claimed that most do support them. However, 100 million is an awful lot of people.

    and it will grow if the west continues killing civilians and targeting muslims
    This doesn't make sense. The west are not "targeting civilians". Some have been killed as a result of targeting military/extremists, and that is wrong, but those numbers are very low compared to the numbers of Muslims deliberately killed by ISIS, and all the other Muslim groups fighting in Syria and Iraq.

    Why would the small number of accidental (but still wrong) deaths caused by the west cause more Muslims to support groups who are deliberately killing many more Muslims?
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    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    Muslims are well integrated, they have jobs, contribute to society etc. They also have religious freedom which they don't have to abandon to 'integrate' one can practice their religion and contribute to society. A niqab does not stop one from doing so, I know many muslim women who wear the niqab and they go to classes, have jobs etc.
    "Unemployment rates for Muslims are more than twice that of the general population (12.8% compared to 5.4%) and 41% are economically inactive, compared to 21.8% of the general population. The disadvantage is greater still for Muslim women: 65% of economically inactive Muslims are women. "
    http://www.publications.parliament.u...eq/89/8903.htm
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    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    That is not a good comparison, because Allah gives us free choice. That is why theres good and bad. Religion is not violence, theres not someone threatening you with a knife. muslims believe in the after life, muslims believe in God. if you don't believe in it don't.
    It is a perfect analogy.
    Allah says "I would like you to worship me, but if you don't I will torture you for all eternity". He is holding a metaphorical knife to your throat. The only difference is that only people who have been brought up to believe the knife is real can see it.

    It is meaningless to simply say "but Allah gives us free choice", when the evidence suggests otherwise. Are you not familiar with all the quotes from the Quran, sunnah and scholars saying that whatever Allah decrees will happen and you cannot change it or avoid it. Where is free will in that?

    But people are not indoctrinated. Like people are not indoctrinated for being a Marxist.
    Do you know what "indoctrinate" means?

    Of course people are indoctrinated into Islam from childhood. That is precisely how it keeps going.
    Do you seriously think that if children were told nothing about religion until they were 18, and were given a purely evidence based, scientific, pragmatic education where they are encouraged to question and analyse evrything, and they were then given the Quran to read at age 18, they wouldn't think it was clearly a myth made up by 7th century Arabs as a means of political and social control?

    And countries like Russia and China were experts at indoctrinating society. Look up the Cultural Revolution to see what is possible with the indoctrination of children.
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    (Original post by 1010marina)
    France burkini ban: Australian woman forced off Riviera beach - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-37382318

    I genuinely don't think I've ever heard of a more attention seeking person in my life.

    Bahaha.
    Typical Australian Muslims telling the French how to behave.

    If they were so concerned over women's rights to dress as they please she would have gone to a Muslim country and protested there

    But as we know this is about making people accept Islamic norms not human rights.

    So glad they gave her short shrift.
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    (Original post by Anonymous9753)
    http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/...n_(P1179).html
    And listen to lecture by Yusuf estes, simply the 'beat' like a feather, using a feather.
    So you think that a Muslim man is allowed to beat his wife as a punishment. But because you don't really like the idea of it, you search out modern interpretations that limit the severity of the beating - in this case, like a "feather", despite there being no mention of this in the Quran of sunnah. The Quran simply says "beat/hit/strike" using a form of "waidribu" that is also used in 8:12 where it is used to describe striking enemies in battle. Do you really think that Allah instructed Muhammad's soldiers to strike their enemies "like a feather"?
    No, neither do I.
    The references in the sunnah say that the beating must not be "too severe", must not cause injury/break bones/leave wounds, and should avoid the face. Not quite "like a feather".
    Finally, in context of the use of violence, as the Quran prescribes amputation for theft and flogging for sex outside marriage, a bit of a slapping about for being a disobedient wife does not really seem out of place, does it?

    Anyway, I think our conversation Is done, this will never end. I will say this, why don't you look at the islamic perspective. Because clearly you don't and are bias in thinking. If I continue replying to your dozens of comments I will be 83 and I have a life. There is so use as this conversation will only go round and round.
    Not sure what you mean here. I have read the Quran, parts of the sunnah, classical tafsir, biographies of Muhammad and academic histories of Islam (it is a bit of a hobby of mine). I would suggest that I have more knowledge of the "Islamic perspective" than many Muslims. If what you mean is that I can't understand it unless I am a Muslim, I would say *******s! It is you who are displaying bias and a lack or willingness to look at it from other perspectives.

    I always find it ironic when people who are indoctrinated into an ideology that claims that the answer to everything is to be found in a 1400 year old book, accuse people who require some kind of evidence before accepting extraordinary claims are "biased" or "close-minded".

    Tell me this... do you accept that Allah might not exist and Islam might all just made up by 7th century Arabs?

    Finally, I don't blame you for giving up this discussion. To be fair, most apologists using such clearly falacious, muddled and contradictory arguments give up a long time before you have. And (IIRC) you haven't called me a bigot or ignorant. Well done!
 
 
 
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