Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Hectic
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#3721
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#3721
Are there any useful links in describing pros and cons of independence?
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MatureStudent36
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#3722
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#3722
(Original post by Hectic)
Are there any useful links in describing pros and cons of independence?
Heres an internal SNP document on the issue.

http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee0..._u9m6vd74f.pdf
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wrangled
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#3723
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#3723
(Original post by Quady)
The English never asked for one...

Thats how democracy works.
What trash! Please don't insult my intelligence.

The English have demanded one. There has FYI been a growing campaign called The Campaign for an English Parliament (funnily enough). It has gathered momentum since 1997.

The Westminster establishment has rejected and rejected and ignored it for years. Only a few minsters have ever proposed the idea in Parliament.

Democracy?! You think we live in a democracy eh? Keep on dreaming!
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MatureStudent36
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#3724
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#3724
An interesting read.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/stuart-waiton-16-year-olds-and-the-referendum-1-3156545

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DavidSilvaMCFC
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#3725
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#3725
(Original post by Tigers)
yes I can run and live
Oh ****ing dear. So basically you got your world view from a film made by an alcoholic anti-semite?
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Hectic
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#3726
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#3726
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Heres an internal SNP document on the issue.

http://b.3cdn.net/better/c1d14076ee0..._u9m6vd74f.pdf
Thank you.

Your thoughts on independence?
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MatureStudent36
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#3727
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#3727
(Original post by Hectic)
Thank you.

Your thoughts on independence?
Read through the post. Basically I'll be voting no. We have the best of both worlds at the moment. We're part of the most successfull union the worlds ever seen. The sum of the whole is stronger than the sum of the parts. We'd be economically worse off if there was a yes vote and the SNP have lied too many times to us.
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Choo.choo
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#3728
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#3728
Why should the Scottish people have to continue to be told what to do by a party they never vote for?
If the Conservatives win the next election, the Scottish people will still be told what to do by them.
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Choo.choo
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#3729
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#3729
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
We'd be economically worse off if there was a yes vote and the SNP have lied too many times to us.
Why do you always say the SNP are bad?
If you compare the SNP with the Conservatives, you will see that the SNP have done more good things for Scotland than the Tories.
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Hectic
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#3730
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#3730
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Read through the post. Basically I'll be voting no. We have the best of both worlds at the moment. We're part of the most successfull union the worlds ever seen. The sum of the whole is stronger than the sum of the parts. We'd be economically worse off if there was a yes vote and the SNP have lied too many times to us.
Agreed and the frightening prospect is that if independence is achieved, we could end up with different currency.
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DavidSilvaMCFC
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#3731
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#3731
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Can you please ask those 'proud', 'patriotic' Scots at 'Better Together' who are unable to defend the union without first declaring their Scottish pride and patriotism?

Let me know when you have the answer, but I won't be holding my breath.
Why don't you ask Tigers the same question?
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Moosferatu
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#3732
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#3732
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Read through the post. Basically I'll be voting no. We have the best of both worlds at the moment. We're part of the most successfull union the worlds ever seen. The sum of the whole is stronger than the sum of the parts. We'd be economically worse off if there was a yes vote and the SNP have lied too many times to us.
I have yet to see a convincing argument for independence. Most of them seem to rely on 'we need to get away from the English'. Doesn't seem like a very sustainable strategy.
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DavidSilvaMCFC
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#3733
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#3733
(Original post by Tigers)
I don't see why these lads don't deserve a country for their own and always have to be a province of London
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lofNXF-UMe0
Nationalism is so beautiful...

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Choo.choo
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#3734
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#3734
(Original post by Moosferatu)
I have yet to see a convincing argument for independence. Most of them seem to rely on 'we need to get away from the English'. Doesn't seem like a very sustainable strategy.
It is not the English that Scotland needs to get away from, it is Westminster.
As for your first sentence, this indicates that you have not read at least the last 10-15 pages of this thread.
I am not asking you to read the 'entire' thread, as that will take a long time.
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Emmie3303
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#3735
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#3735
I think Salmond has a lot of convincing to do if he wants a yes vote to be returned next year. I want to see solid figures and an explanation of how he is going to sustain all the great benefits that Scotland offers its residents without raising taxes or suffering crippling debt.

I have so many questions. Who would pay for the removal of Trident from the Clyde (if Salmond managed to do it)? Would this negatively effect the Successor programme (quite a selfish concern, but still valid)? How much of the national debt would Scotland take with it? Would Scotland be able to continue to offer free education and prescriptions? What about currency? What effects will there be on the UK after Scotland leaves? What would happen if Scotland got into difficulty?

I had a long chat with an SNP activist a few weeks ago, and she gave me a lot of things to think about regarding things like Scottish heritage, the Scottish perspective on the removal of Trident and some more emotional issues. At the beginning of the conversation I said I wanted to know more about the cold hard facts and her response was something along the lines of 'we can't really give you that because Cameron won't come to the table before the referendum'. That's not a good enough excuse.

The only thing she said that sounded reasonable was the inability of Scottish MPs as a group to significantly influence policy in Westminster. That may be true, but the 3 or 4 MPs that serve Cumbria are just as unable to make an impact at Westminster and local issues are consistently ignored. The system may be flawed in that sense, but Scotland is not alone in being unable to influence policy. In fact, I'd argue that the existence of a Scottish parliament at least allows Scottish people to influence where money is spent. People in England do not have that luxury.

It's all well and good voting yes just to give Scotland independence, but how much are people willing to lose for that principle? Maybe Scotland would flourish, but at the moment all I've seen is people arguing for independence on the basis of a hope that Scotland will do well, and not on the basis of anything solid. Maybe that's enough for some people.


In answer to the original question, I definitely think the referendum is a good thing. People should be able to say definitively what they want to happen to Scotland. If a yes vote is returned, which I seriously doubt will happen, I truly hope that everyone involved in organising Scottish independence takes every possible care to get it right. Salmond should be patient. There will only be one chance to get it right and party politics shouldn't get in the way of that.
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player19
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#3736
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#3736
What do the average Scots think about independence?

Also from history Scotland was forced to accept the Act of Union and the Scots were back than mad about it.
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Choo.choo
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#3737
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#3737
(Original post by Emmie3303)
I think Salmond has a lot of convincing to do if he wants a yes vote to be returned next year. I want to see solid figures and an explanation of how he is going to sustain all the great benefits that Scotland offers its residents without raising taxes or suffering crippling debt.

I have so many questions. Who would pay for the removal of Trident from the Clyde (if Salmond managed to do it)? Would this negatively effect the Successor programme (quite a selfish concern, but still valid)? How much of the national debt would Scotland take with it? Would Scotland be able to continue to offer free education and prescriptions? What about currency? What effects will there be on the UK after Scotland leaves? What would happen if Scotland got into difficulty?
These are questions that we all want to know the answer to.
We will know the answers to these questions after the publication of the White Paper on the 26th November.
The White Paper should address your concerns from your first paragraph too.

(Original post by Emmie3303)
I had a long chat with an SNP activist a few weeks ago, and she gave me a lot of things to think about regarding things like Scottish heritage, the Scottish perspective on the removal of Trident and some more emotional issues. At the beginning of the conversation I said I wanted to know more about the cold hard facts and her response was something along the lines of 'we can't really give you that because Cameron won't come to the table before the referendum'. That's not a good enough excuse.

The only thing she said that sounded reasonable was the inability of Scottish MPs as a group to significantly influence policy in Westminster. That may be true, but the 3 or 4 MPs that serve Cumbria are just as unable to make an impact at Westminster and local issues are consistently ignored. The system may be flawed in that sense, but Scotland is not alone in being unable to influence policy. In fact, I'd argue that the existence of a Scottish parliament at least allows Scottish people to influence where money is spent. People in England do not have that luxury.
This just proves my point from the last 10-15 pages of this thread: that the Wesminster Government will NEVER operate on a fair and impartial basis, and will always be corrupt.
Vote Yes next September.

(Original post by Emmie3303)
It's all well and good voting yes just to give Scotland independence, but how much are people willing to lose for that principle? Maybe Scotland would flourish, but at the moment all I've seen is people arguing for independence on the basis of a hope that Scotland will do well, and not on the basis of anything solid. Maybe that's enough for some people.
I assume that you want Scotland to continue to be run by a corrupt Westminster Government, which past evidence has shown is run by one of two parties: Conservative or Labour. The Scottish people do not vote Tory, yet they still tell us what to do.

(Original post by Emmie3303)
In answer to the original question, I definitely think the referendum is a good thing. People should be able to say definitively what they want to happen to Scotland.
I could not agree more.
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Stark98
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#3738
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#3738
Scotland has a great deal of power devolved to it's Scottish Parliament anyway - there is simply not the argument that Westminster are the wicked Englishmen who make the Scot the scapegoat since Blair's devolution movement. Scotland gets more out of the system than it puts in, and public spending in Scotland is higher per head than anywhere else in the UK. Why on Earth would anyone vote yes to leave a Union which has been together 300 years, proved its success time and time again and now is entirely fair for both states involved? Under Westminster, Scottish people enjoy free university education, a better secondary and primary education system, free prescriptions and more spending per head than anywhere else in Britain. An independent Scotland would be completely reliant upon North Sea oil prices, and when it runs out they would find themselves either having to raise taxes, borrow heavily or drop the main things which make the SNP so attractive to voters - namely a world-class education system and free healthcare. To me, I can't see the logic in going it alone when they've already got it so good as part of the UK.
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MatureStudent36
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#3739
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#3739
(Original post by Emmie3303)
I think Salmond has a lot of convincing to do if he wants a yes vote to be returned next year. I want to see solid figures and an explanation of how he is going to sustain all the great benefits that Scotland offers its residents without raising taxes or suffering crippling debt.

I have so many questions. Who would pay for the removal of Trident from the Clyde (if Salmond managed to do it)? Would this negatively effect the Successor programme (quite a selfish concern, but still valid)? How much of the national debt would Scotland take with it? Would Scotland be able to continue to offer free education and prescriptions? What about currency? What effects will there be on the UK after Scotland leaves? What would happen if Scotland got into difficulty?

I had a long chat with an SNP activist a few weeks ago, and she gave me a lot of things to think about regarding things like Scottish heritage, the Scottish perspective on the removal of Trident and some more emotional issues. At the beginning of the conversation I said I wanted to know more about the cold hard facts and her response was something along the lines of 'we can't really give you that because Cameron won't come to the table before the referendum'. That's not a good enough excuse.

The only thing she said that sounded reasonable was the inability of Scottish MPs as a group to significantly influence policy in Westminster. That may be true, but the 3 or 4 MPs that serve Cumbria are just as unable to make an impact at Westminster and local issues are consistently ignored. The system may be flawed in that sense, but Scotland is not alone in being unable to influence policy. In fact, I'd argue that the existence of a Scottish parliament at least allows Scottish people to influence where money is spent. People in England do not have that luxury.

It's all well and good voting yes just to give Scotland independence, but how much are people willing to lose for that principle? Maybe Scotland would flourish, but at the moment all I've seen is people arguing for independence on the basis of a hope that Scotland will do well, and not on the basis of anything solid. Maybe that's enough for some people.


In answer to the original question, I definitely think the referendum is a good thing. People should be able to say definitively what they want to happen to Scotland. If a yes vote is returned, which I seriously doubt will happen, I truly hope that everyone involved in organising Scottish independence takes every possible care to get it right. Salmond should be patient. There will only be one chance to get it right and party politics shouldn't get in the way of that.
A bloody excellent post.
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Emmie3303
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#3740
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#3740
(Original post by Choo.choo)
These are questions that we all want to know the answer to.
We will know the answers to these questions after the publication of the White Paper on the 26th November.
The White Paper should address your concerns from your first paragraph too.
I'd definitely like to read it when it comes out. I'd far rather read an impartial assessment on the pros and cons, but I don't think that's likely to surface.


This just proves my point from the last 10-15 pages of this thread: that the Wesminster Government will NEVER operate on a fair and impartial basis, and will always be corrupt.
Vote Yes next September.
All it proves is that the system needs changing to ensure fair representation. The potential is there for improvement. People just need to come up with a better solution than AV.

I assume that you want Scotland to continue to be run by a corrupt Westminster Government, which past evidence has shown is run by one of two parties: Conservative or Labour. The Scottish people do not vote Tory, yet they still tell us what to do.
I voted Labour in 2010, but I have to listen to a Tory government. In fact the majority of the UK voted for left wing politicians in the election. We are in the same boat. It is not a purely Scottish issue. Yes, Scotland consistently rejects Tory government, but you can't deny that having the Scottish parliament allows you to protect a lot of the things that you would want from a left wing government anyway.

I'm leaning strongly towards no, because I don't believe independence is in Scotland or the UK's best interests. I am, however, prepared to listen to Salmond when he finally makes his case.
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