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    (Original post by eddie1221)
    There's no defence for killing the kids on a beach, true. Shelters and hospitals are being used to hide/fire missiles, so they are legitimate targets.
    But, there have been a very tiny amount of incidents like the beach one. Now, compare that to Hamas who are only targeting Israeli civilians.

    You don't like it, but Israel aren't the ones to blame.
    Israel have killed over 1400,most of them including children

    Hamas have killed 58 with 56 of them being soldiers

    You really think that Hamas are only targeting civilians while Israel aren't?
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    I think they're capable of building a bomb shelter ffs :rolleyes:.

    It's basically a reinforced room. Why are palestinians treated like they're poor little kids?

    They managed to build this
    Those may be in Palestine but who do you think funded and uses such places? Not the people you see being killed by Israeli airstrikes. Everyday citizens don't just have JCBs and a bunch of bomb shelter plans and materials kicking about.
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    (Original post by Amphiprion)
    Those may be in Palestine but who do you think funded and uses such places? Not the people you see being killed by Israeli airstrikes. Everyday citizens don't just have JCBs and a bunch of bomb shelter plans and materials kicking about.
    Well listen, if they don't want to take care of their citizens - than there's nothing we can do about it.

    Arab states don't tend to care much for their people as it is, let alone a terrorist group like Hamas.

    Nothing Israel can do about that. They already go above and beyond what is expected of an army in protecting civilians.
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    (Original post by King Kebab)
    Israel have killed over 1400,most of them including children

    Hamas have killed 58 with 56 of them being soldiers

    You really think that Hamas are only targeting civilians while Israel aren't?
    Hamas are firing missiles constantly at civilians. The difference is that Israel have the iron dome and shelters.
    Hamas are also hiding behind civilians, not caring if they die, just to try and get the upper hand politically.
    So yes, and yes.
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    (Original post by Sic semper erat)
    "My media" said no such thing, theyre quoting what Hamas says :confused:
    Then I fail to see what possible issues you would have to it.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    As I have said, the State of Israel came about through mass illegal immigration and terrorism and not military conquest.

    Any subsequent expeditions it decides to undertake in order to annex further territories will be illegitimate given the fact that it's starting point was illegitimate.
    nope the fact that israel was in existence in 1948 was down to the fact it successfully defeated a collection of arab countires militarily to establish its borders with its neighbours. egpyt and jrodan at the same time seized gaza and wb, but lost them to israel in subsequent military conflict.
    so whichever way you lookk at it, (inc you own bloodthirsty need for military conquest) israel should own palestine

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    As I have said, one numerous occasions, I am simply against mass illegal immigrants violating their adopted countries hospitality by demanding their own state through terrorism. as many represented by many islamist groups globally. ok thanks for clarifying.
    then shouldnt we be dealing with islamists all over the globe first before even looking at palestine then
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Well listen, if they don't want to take care of their citizens - than there's nothing we can do about it.

    Arab states don't tend to care much for their people as it is, let alone a terrorist group like Hamas.

    Nothing Israel can do about that. They already go above and beyond what is expected of an army in protecting civilians.
    I'm not anti-Israel in principle but I don't realy support them stepping up air strikes they know are pretty ineffective at actually killing militants.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    So speaking out against atrocities and condemning indiscriminate civilian targeting makes one an anti semite?
    What in your eyes would make a person not anti semite?
    Chant death to palestine, there is no school tomorrow?
    Approve bombings of un facilities, schools and hospitals?

    Come off it mate
    i didn't realise the pro israel arguments were so piss poor that they actually had to resort to the antisemite card, but you learn something new everyday
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    (Original post by eddie1221)
    Hamas are firing missiles constantly at civilians. The difference is that Israel have the iron dome and shelters.
    Hamas are also hiding behind civilians, not caring if they die, just to try and get the upper hand politically.
    So yes, and yes.
    There is absolutely no evidence that Hamas are hiding behind civilians other than claim by the Israelis
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    (Original post by Amphiprion)
    I'm not anti-Israel in principle but I don't realy support them stepping up air strikes they know are pretty ineffective at actually killing militants.
    Well, they're in on the ground now too.

    That's what a lot of people seemed to have wanted, even though it always causes more casualties.


    Israel is legally obligated to protect their own citizens from rockets. Air strikes are an absolute must.
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    (Original post by King Kebab)
    There is absolutely no evidence that Hamas are hiding behind civilians other than claim by the Israelis
    I guess that this doesn't confirm them hiding missiles in a school then: http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-...ne-its-schools

    I guess all the video footage of missiles being shot from schools/civilian areas/near hospitals, etc. are also fake then.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    After the elections?
    It doesn't matter some Jihadist group will still try to wipe Israel out, it's a hard situation, I would love one state where Palenstians & Israeli's can live in peace & harmony but Hamas don't want this they want Israel's destruction, Who wins out of this religious bull****? No one wins, both on each side die.
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    (Original post by King Kebab)
    Israel have killed over 1400,most of them including children

    Hamas have killed 58 with 56 of them being soldiers

    You really think that Hamas are only targeting civilians while Israel aren't?
    Hamas/PLO slaughter at every possible opportunity, including their own people. There's a reason everybody hates them.

    Far less Palestinians have died at the hands of Israel then they have at the hands of muslims.

    Why do you feel the need to perpetuate myth?
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    nope the fact that israel was in existence in 1948 was down to the fact it successfully defeated a collection of arab countires militarily to establish its borders with its neighbours. egpyt and jrodan at the same time seized gaza and wb, but lost them to israel in subsequent military conflict.
    so whichever way you lookk at it, (inc you own bloodthirsty need for military conquest) israel should own palestine
    As I have constantly reiterated, Israel came about through mass illegal immigration and terrorism.

    I cannot stress this fact enough.

    then shouldnt we be dealing with islamists all over the globe first before even looking at palestine then
    What is this that you added onto in your reply to my post?

    "as many represented by many islamist groups globally. ok thanks for clarifying."
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    (Original post by vickidc18)
    It doesn't matter some Jihadist group will still try to wipe Israel out, it's a hard situation, I would love one state where Palenstians & Israeli's can live in peace & harmony but Hamas don't want this they want Israel's destruction, Who wins out of this religious bull****? No one wins, both on each side die.
    Before I respond, can I ask how far back does your knowledge of the conflict go?
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    That one is not worth the time. You'll get the same reply over and over.
    Except that Israel retained control over Gaza’s borders, airspace, coastline, infrastructure, power, import-exports, etc
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    (Original post by Pinzgauer)
    Well, they're in on the ground now too.

    That's what a lot of people seemed to have wanted, even though it always causes more casualties.


    Israel is legally obligated to protect their own citizens from rockets. Air strikes are an absolute must.
    I'd prefer them going ahead with the ground invasion and reigning in the air strikes to only using them on confirmed Hamas facilities or as a preliminary strike before raiding a building on foot. Their current method is more like firing a shot gun into a crowd hoping to hit the bad guy.

    Trouble with a groud invasion is that it will almost definitely result in guerilla warfare against the Israelis. A situation that could be almost unwinnable like in other occupied countries. It would also most likely lead to more war crimes carried out by extreme anti-Arab Israeli soldiers being too heavy handed or Abu Ghraib situations.

    Who thing is just a cluster ****.
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    [QUOTE=tsr1269;48919577]As I have constantly reiterated, Israel came about through mass illegal immigration and terrorism.

    I cannot stress this fact enough. /QUOTE]

    and I cannot stress enough that you do not use facts. israel set their borders by defeating the arab nations in war ( jsut as you like) any later immgration came following that action ( not sure why you claim it is 'illegal' :confused:)

    terrorism comes entirely from the islamist side, as it has in all other incidences accross the globe.

    (Original post by tsr1269)
    What is this that you added onto in your reply to my post?

    "as many represented by many islamist groups globally. ok thanks for clarifying."
    what you are describing is the actions of islamists, not israel, so following your concerns we should be attacking islamist groups in the nonislamic world, before even talking about israel.
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    Bolivia declares Israel a terrorist state.


    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...tate/13384989/
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    (Original post by demhka)
    Except that Israel retained control over Gaza’s borders, airspace, coastline, infrastructure, power, import-exports, etc
    What are you replying to?

    Listen, let me try and break this down for you slowly - and hopefully something will sink in.


    Control of borders: Israel retained control of its border with Gaza. They obviously have a right to do so.
    Egypt retained control of its border with Gaza. They obviously have a right to do so. The Rafah crossing into Gaza had EU monitors there.


    Control of airspace: Upon withdrawing from Gaza, Israel said (and I quote) "Israel will consider the establishment of a seaport and airport in the Gaza Strip, in accordance with arrangements to be agreed upon"
    The palestinians replied with rocket fire on the day Israel withdrew, which scuppered those plans.


    Control of coastline: Upon withdrawing from Gaza, Israel said (and I quote) "Israel will consider the establishment of a seaport and airport in the Gaza Strip, in accordance with arrangements to be agreed upon".

    The palestinians replied with rocket fire on the day Israel withdrew, which scuppered those plans.
    Additionally, only AFTER rockets began pouring into Israel and Hamas came to power - was a naval blockade implemented closer to the Gaza shore.


    Control of power: Well, Israel supplied them with some of their power. I'm not sure if you wanted Israel to cut them off or?
    They also have their own power station. The problem is that because Hamas don't recognise or deal with Israel, Israel sells electricity to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. They in turn, sell it to Gaza. However, the PA decided to put a huge levy oh the sale to Gaza. Hamas refused to pay, hence power shortages.

    Control of imports/exports: Between 2005-2007, there were no restrictions on imports/exports other than weapons. Egypt was trading with Gaza, and Gaza was trading with Israel.
    Only after Hamas came to power and increase in rockets, was the blockade implemented.


    A few things worth noting. Israel's blockade is legal as per the Palmer report. As long as a proscribed terrorist group controls Gaza, Israel is legally within its right to blockade Gaza to prevent weapon transfers and weapon-making material.


    Basically, if the palestinians had for once in their lives behaved themselves in 2005, they could have had a port, airport and free movement.

    Instead, they decided to do what they have always done - resort to terrorism. It was too good an opportunity for them to resist moving their rocket launchers onto the vacated Gaza land and bombard Israel.


    Egypt also blockades Gaza because of Hamas.

    So it's time to ask yourself who's at fault if both countries have had enough of Gaza.
 
 
 
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