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A Basic Men's Guide to Success with Women Watch

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    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    I wouldn't really call flirting with pretty girls "work". If you're doing it right, you'll enjoy it, so you might put more time into it, but it shouldn't feel like hard work.

    That makes absolutely no sense. If you have to learn the skill, you aren't putting in no "effort at all". And if you are successful, you are successful. Whether you would describe it as that is irrelevant.

    So you don't mind people learning the skill of chatting up women? It sounds like all you really object to is the label of "pick up artist". Certainly, when relaying these tips to friends, I don't use the PUA language. As you have said, a lot of the tips are pretty simple, but they are still effective, and a lot of people still aren't doing them.

    They aren't insults, that's honestly how you're coming across.

    You learn the skills to be successful once, then you never have to make effort again. Thats what I meant. If you're not natural at it its probably more work initially, but once you've sorted your life out then its plain sailing.

    However, if you still have the attitude that what you're doing is "chatting up" girls or "going out on the pull", it won't work. You have to get past those immature ideas first.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    You learn the skills to be successful once, then you never have to make effort again. Thats what I meant. If you're not natural at it its probably more work initially, but once you've sorted your life out then its plain sailing.

    However, if you still have the attitude that what you're doing is "chatting up" girls or "going out on the pull", it won't work. You have to get past those immature ideas first.
    That's true with PUA techniques as well, though. Once you know how to do it, you don't need to work at it, it comes as naturally as saying "excuse me" when you bump into someone. It sounds like you are basically talking about learning how to talk to girls, but using different terminology to PUAs. Seems a petty thing to get so passionate about.

    Right, again, the problem with that idea is this HAS worked for me. So when you say "it won't work", I know you're lying.
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    That's true with PUA techniques as well, though. Once you know how to do it, you don't need to work at it, it comes as naturally as saying "excuse me" when you bump into someone. It sounds like you are basically talking about learning how to talk to girls, but using different terminology to PUAs. Seems a petty thing to get so passionate about.

    Right, again, the problem with that idea is this HAS worked for me. So when you say "it won't work", I know you're lying.
    Has it really worked though? I mean, ok, you got a girlfriend, which you may well have done anyway, given that you're clearly competent enough to hold onto a girlfriend for 18 months. You didn't suddenly turn into Gene Simmons with women texting you asking for sex every night of the week.

    There is still a big difference between what I advocate and what PUAs advocate. PUAs still view women as a target, they still talk about picking up girls. I don't, I recommend sorting out your life until the point that you're attractive in your own right, and then letting the girls come to you. (cue George trying to make out that this is what PUAs recommend as well).
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    thanks for the advice I know how to improve now
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    Has it really worked though? I mean, ok, you got a girlfriend, which you may well have done anyway, given that you're clearly competent enough to hold onto a girlfriend for 18 months. You didn't suddenly turn into Gene Simmons with women texting you asking for sex every night of the week.

    There is still a big difference between what I advocate and what PUAs advocate. PUAs still view women as a target, they still talk about picking up girls. I don't, I recommend sorting out your life until the point that you're attractive in your own right, and then letting the girls come to you. (cue George trying to make out that this is what PUAs recommend as well).
    I'd say keeping a girlfriend and chatting up a girl are very different. One of my close mates is a virgin (not through choice), but I reckon he'd be fine if he could actually get the girl in the first place.

    I'm not saying I am some amazing example to look up to, lots of guys are better are meeting women than me, but I think I am in a good position to give advice, because I didn't have natural ability at this, I didn't kiss a girl until I was nearly seventeen, I was nineteen when I lost my virginity, so I did need to improve myself to get girls.

    But people do pick a women as a target, it's just the word "target" that makes that sound malicious.

    I would say "letting girls come to you", is generally unrealistic, for example my girlfriend has admitted she never went for boys, she waited for them to come to her. Most girls don't, especially not attractive ones. You do have to be attractive, but you also have to learn to talk to girls.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    Forget what I think, why don't you show everyone else who is looking at this thread and let them judge for themselves? Just to prove you're not bull****ting us.
    You're the only one asking for the information. And as I've pointed out (and you haven't disagreed) no matter how much information I show you, you won't change your mind.

    So again I ask, what's the point?
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    Has it really worked though? I mean, ok, you got a girlfriend, which you may well have done anyway, given that you're clearly competent enough to hold onto a girlfriend for 18 months. You didn't suddenly turn into Gene Simmons with women texting you asking for sex every night of the week.

    There is still a big difference between what I advocate and what PUAs advocate. PUAs still view women as a target, they still talk about picking up girls. I don't, I recommend sorting out your life until the point that you're attractive in your own right, and then letting the girls come to you. (cue George trying to make out that this is what PUAs recommend as well).
    You're right. It is what PUA's recommend.
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    (Original post by Lucia.)
    YES YES YES

    Thank you for that statement.
    And how are they perma losers may I ask Lucia?
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    See, the thing is I never found socialising difficult generally, it was only chatting up girls. I've never had a problem meeting new people or anything- I didn't have to learn to socialise. So just socialising more didn't help me. I didn't go on "practise missions" either, but if it helps someone, I'm not going to be an ******** to them.

    And do you have any evidence for that statement? It just sounds like you don't like the practise of PUA, so you have decided it doesn't work, like a lot of girls do. As I say, from my own, personal experience, I know it can help. Do you know any men who are sad, bitter and lonely because of PUA? Be honest.

    There's some truth to that, but you've got to understand the psychology of the insecure male. By having some sort of plan that he thinks is golden, it improves his confidence, and I think the one thing we all agree upon that helps you with relationships.

    See, it is unclear whether your objection is primarily moral or success based. It is a bit convenient to claim it is both.

    I don't think there's anything really sexist about the general idea, considering it is obviously aimed at young men who are trying to get with girls anyway, it isn't trying to persuade you to live a certain way, it is just helping people to live that lifestyle more successfully. There are things within it that I've thought are creepy, like using PUA ideas on your girlfriend- as far as I can see, that just shouldn't be necessary, and it is weird be to using tactics in your everyday life. So PUA isn't inherently sexist, but there is a fair amount of sexism within it.
    (Original post by dgeorge)
    There are some PUA's who do all that stuff, but following from certain methods, the emphasis is on "inner game" instead of techniques.

    ALL "PUA's" stress that what is important are things such as confidence, being an interesting person with MORE going for them than being good at picking up women, having hobbies, physical activities, being funny, and generally being a good person.

    They stress that the "tips and techniques" that you seem to keep prattling on about (but seem to have little idea on what they actually are) such as ways to interpret body language, how to physically carry yourself, how to maintain eye contact, what type of language to use, how to become an engaging story teller, how to be funny etc are all in the effort to build oneself up and give yourself a better shot. All of these are explained.

    They are not "designed" to fool anyone, or objectify anyone, because they are simply based on NORMAL behaviour that not everyone may notice which make men better with social interactions.

    At the end of the day, PUA literature is designed to change the MINDSET of a person, and their attitudes and the way they view male female relationship

    Sure, there is a LOT of crap in PUA literature, there is some advice that doesn't always help, and there is some advice that may actually be counter productive. But there is also lots of good advice. I say to people, take everything that is said with a grain of salt, think and use your own intuition. Not everything will work, but you can bet that there are some things that do.

    Of course, you're not going to listen. You're probably going to go into explaining why everything that I've spoken about that makes sense are somehow "exceptions" to the rule, despite you not really having a good grasp on what the rules are. You've already formed your own opinion, and thus everything I say is going to be put into a filter in your mind to come out to the exact conclusion that you've already reached. Therefore, there really isn't much of a point arguing with you further.
    The problem is, most guys that turn to PUA won't be able to tell the difference between the BS and the genuine stuff, so just end up becoming dicks.

    (Original post by Cll_ws)
    I've often seen this thread, but never bothered to read it, so this is the first time. I can't help but think that it's all totally geared towards your own tastes, I mean there's some pretty rash statements in there. Long hair, unattractive, facial hair, unattractive, piercings, unattractive, skinny jeans...you get the idea - there's a huge amount of guys gone already.

    All i've gotten from that is that if I want to become more attractive to girls looks-wise, then I should tone up and wear chinos. Thanks for that, i'll go out immediately and buy an assortment of colours so that me and my friends can mix and match like all the other trendy lads do on nights out :rolleyes:
    To be honest, the OP seems to be describing the average guy that has a girlfriend, which is basically the average guy.

    (Original post by py0alb)
    Most girls notice (hell I would notice). Black shoes and blue jeans just look silly. The smarter the shoe, and the paler and more casual the jean, the sillier it looks.
    I'd notice, but I wouldn't really care that much.

    (Original post by Mankytoes)

    Even you must know that doing what women tell you to do is not a good way to get women?
    :lolwut:
    Yeah....no. Just, no. If I say someone insulting me or pretending to be busy or being really loud and confident would put me off, I mean it.



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    (Original post by Sheldor)
    The problem is, most guys that turn to PUA won't be able to tell the difference between the BS and the genuine stuff, so just end up becoming dicks.



    To be honest, the OP seems to be describing the average guy that has a girlfriend, which is basically the average guy.



    I'd notice, but I wouldn't really care that much.



    :lolwut:
    Yeah....no. Just, no. If I say someone insulting me or pretending to be busy or being really loud and confident would put me off, I mean it.



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    The problem is, most guys that turn to PUA won't be able to tell the difference between the BS and the genuine stuff, so just end up becoming dicks
    Broad statement there. I can only tell you about my personal experiences - I can't generalise for the rest of guys. But it's like any other self help topic - there's lots of crap out there and lots of useful stuff out there as well. Saying that because *some* people pay more attention to the crap that it isn't useful AT ALL is wrong IMHO

    And to be perfectly honest, I don't think most people understand the process of attraction. With women it's a bit worse, because they are the ones being approached, and because of this there is far less intentional and conscious planning about how to be attractive
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    This is bullcrap. My husband had long hair, full beard, didn't go to gym and wore black t shirt on our first date. He doesn't look grungy or messy or whatever. He has since cut his hair because of work, nothing else, if it wasn't required he would have gladly kept the long hair. I suggest you keep your advice to yourself and don't generalize us women. We like the person for who they are and respect them more for not conforming to people like you and your idea of how a man should appear.

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    (Original post by dgeorge)
    Broad statement there. I can only tell you about my personal experiences - I can't generalise for the rest of guys. But it's like any other self help topic - there's lots of crap out there and lots of useful stuff out there as well. Saying that because *some* people pay more attention to the crap that it isn't useful AT ALL is wrong IMHO

    And to be perfectly honest, I don't think most people understand the process of attraction. With women it's a bit worse, because they are the ones being approached, and because of this there is far less intentional and conscious planning about how to be attractive
    I said most! Most guys that turn to PUA do it because they have previously failed at interacting with women/people, correct? So they wouldn't be able to tell if something in one of those books just alienates people and never works, since they tend to think of girls as an alien species that want specific things.



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    Well this was boring.
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    (Original post by Sheldor)
    I said most! Most guys that turn to PUA do it because they have previously failed at interacting with women/people, correct? So they wouldn't be able to tell if something in one of those books just alienates people and never works, since they tend to think of girls as an alien species that want specific things.



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    So they wouldn't be able to tell if something in one of those books just alienates people and never works
    Through a process of trial and error as well as common sense, they will eventually figure this out. No different from any other activity.

    they tend to think of girls as an alien species that want specific things.
    I don't think anyone thinks that girls are an "alien species" However, you cannot deny that men and women have different ways of reasoning and behave different in many ways from each other.

    I said most!
    And I'm saying that that is an over generalisation. I highly doubt you know many, guys who are really into the PUA scene, and thus your opinion is probably flawed/biased. If you DO, you are more than welcome to correct me if I'm wrong
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    (Original post by dgeorge)
    Through a process of trial and error as well as common sense, they will eventually figure this out. No different from any other activity.



    I don't think anyone thinks that girls are an "alien species" However, you cannot deny that men and women have different ways of reasoning and behave different in many ways from each other.



    And I'm saying that that is an over generalisation. I highly doubt you know many, guys who are really into the PUA scene, and thus your opinion is probably flawed/biased. If you DO, you are more than welcome to correct me if I'm wrong
    A few of my friends got into it for a while, actually. I pointed out to them that most of it was BS, but they ignored me. (They don't really see me as a girl, I'm not particularly girly so I guess I'm "one of the guys".) They saw girlygirls as completely different things rather than normal human beings to socialize with when I first met them, so they're what I'm basing it on. Once we became friends, I helped them out, so they're good now, but.PUA.gave them pretty twisted ideas.

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    (Original post by HistoryRepeating)
    The most common dating advice is without doubt "be yourself". Whilst this, on a basic level, is fundamentally true (you shouldn't pretend to be something you are not), it also gives the horribly wrong implication that you should not modify your behaviour if there are things that you are doing that prevent meaningful romantic (and to a degree generally 'social') connections.

    It also is often apparant that some people simply don't realise some very basic elements to being attractive to the opposite sex.

    What I hope to set out below is a list of tips relating to appearance, attitude and the way you act that, to many people, will seem blindingly obvious, but to some may actually help a little. I will use a sarcastic tone become I'm a sarcastic **** in real life, bear with me.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: This advice is targetted at people guys who are mainstream and/or want to meet mainstream girls (i.e. this is true for the majority of people). This advice does not work if you want to meet metal, goth, emo chicks etc, however as this is in theory "life" advice and those subcultures really don't much persist past the age of students, it still stands.

    1. Appearance - personal
    Get a Haircut - Unless you are an Italian model or a porn star, Long hair is out. On most guys its unattractive, almost always greasy, and usually badly styled. Very few girls prefer long hair on guys (I'm sure many can tolerate it, but why risk it). You might be the exception to this rule (there are many gorgeous long-haired celebrities), but strongly consider whether you in fact are one of them - Many guys go through a long hair phase around as a student, very VERY few people in their mid-late 20s look back and think it looked good.

    Shave, or at least trim - Neckbeards are disgusting, as are unkempt chin whisps or a wavy moustache. Most people look best cleanshaven or with a few days stubble. Wild facial hair is an example of poor personal grooming, which is a big turn off for many. At the very least if you must have a beard, learn how to trim it properly and keep it short and neat.

    Wash, using soap! - This is so obvious I genuinely hope noone needs to be told. You should be showering daily, in the morning, at the very least. Overnight, in your bed, you sweat (more than half a litre!) and your skin secretes oils that collect in your pores.

    When you wash, most guys should use real soap rather than shower gel - it is vastly (vastly) better at cleaning / odour prevention / removing oil. Only use shower gel alone if you really do never smell/sweat or you have real issues with dry skin.

    Use anti-perspirant - After your shower you should ALWAYS apply anti-perspirant. Not Lynx, that is for pre-teens, but something designed for 24hrs anti-perspirant such as Sure for men. I still occasionally (early 20s) meet guys who dont believe in or use anti-perspirant. They may not be able to smell themselves, but I definitely can. You should use anti-perspirant even if you never normally feel sweaty - everyone sweats small amounts even if you dont feel damp, and the bacteria that feed on it WILL smell even if you cant smell yourself.

    Get fit - I cant stress this one enough. Not only is being fit great for your health and appearance, it hugely helps your confidence too. Find a form of exercise you enjoy and do it often. If you find the gym really boring (and expensive!) check out www.brit****it.com, which runs cheap fitness classes in parks all across the UK and is probably the quickest way possible to getting fit and toned, and of course awesome fun (and a great way to meet people)

    2. Appearance - clothing
    General - Generally, as a guy you should have some slightly smarter clothes for going on dates etc. An outfit that you know looks good also does masses for your confidence.

    Tops - First of all, black t-shirts or 'comedy' t-shirts (and even worse, t-shirts with dragons, fantasy scenes or wolves on them!) are horrible and mark you out as a basement-dweller. AVOID. Next, while hoodies are awesome to keep warm while doing exercise, or when slumming it after a massive night out, they aren't a top you should be wearing out on anything but the most casual of dates (you wouldnt wear tracksuit bottoms on a date would you? Its the same concept).

    What you wear on your top half depends on your personal style, but normal people will wear either a t-shirt with some kind of design on it, a polo shirt or a real shirt (NEVER SHORT SLEEVED SHIRT - these are for IT support and cabin attendants only!). I personally advocate the last but its a matter of personal taste and how smart you need to be. For warmth go with a jumper, jacket or coat. Never wear waterproofs unless you are going hiking - people in North-face all-weather hiking jackets in the city look ridiclous. Use t-shirts underneath to layer up if needed for warmth.

    Trousers - obviously tracksuits, sports trousers etc are not appropriate for a date. Pretty much anything else is, though jeans are the easiest. I personally don't like Combats and other 'sloppy' styles, but this rather depands on the kind of girl you like. Also never wear anything with a high waist. Personally I cant stand skinny jeans on guys (you look androgenous) but I understand this is a matter of taste and some (many?) girls do like that on a guy. Cords or chinos are ok if you are going for a more preppy look.

    Shoes - Black smart shoes dont usually go with blue jeans (though obviously they may go with black jeans). Hiking boots, Sandals, or running shoes dont go with anything. Wear smartish brown shoes, white trainers, high-tops, deck shoes or pretty much anything else depending on your personal style. Flipflops are fine in summer if your local bars etc allow it but consider what the girl might be wearing and try not to dress down too much more than she does.

    Glasses, Hats, watches, jewelry etc - This is a matter of personal style of course, but a lot of people in glasses would look better with contacts. If you think they are too expensive, have a look somewhere like www.daysoft.com (very VERY cheap daily lenses, you'll need to get an eye test at boots first to find out your prescription though). Most guys can't pull off jewellery and just look stupid, especially wearing chains or rings. Piercings are a matter of taste and again depend on your target audience - I'd say in general most "mainstream" girls don't find ear/nose/lip/eyebrow piercings attractive.

    3. Attitude

    If you've got sections one and two wrapped up, likely you are feeling a lot more confident about yourself. This is key. The single biggest factor in being attractive is being confident. Even if you aren't yet confident, you will get more confident in time through practice approaching girls and going on dates.

    Whenever you hear a guy saying "why dont girls like 'nice guys'" you can be 100% certain his key problem is one of three things - that he isn't, in fact, a nice guy, that he is not being forward enough in his approach to girls or else he is too keen.

    Points to remember:
    Make your intentions clear - Its really REALLY important to make your intentions clear early on in your relationship with a girl. I dont mean actually saying "I fancy you" (although some people can pull this off if they are cocky enough!), I mean flirting to the point that it is completely unambiguous. This should always be done on a first date to establish if there is chemistry! This point must be considered in light of the next one however

    Don't be too clingy - Desperate guys are a massive turn off. Coming on too strong likewise - both imply that finding a girl who likes your attention is rare so you are making a big deal out of it, this is NOT a good impression to give. To combine this with the point above, the attitude you are going for is "I want you, but I don't need you".

    Don't overthink - So you had your first date and it went quite well? now you start worrying about when to text her, what her texts or lack of them mean, analysing what she said during the date.... STOP. All of this is bull****. Some (generally broken) people like to play games, but you can win these games by refusing to play. Wait until you next want to see the girl, call her, and ask her out again. No need to have a strategy, no need to ignore her 2 days, just play it by ear (but always bear in mind the 2 points above, not too keen, upfront about intentions).

    4. Project Confidence
    Really all these tips are to help with this final point. Everything comes down to confidence. The best thing about confidence is, you cant fake it. Or rather, if you successfully fake it you aren't faking it, its real! There are lots of 'tricks' to help you appear confident (and therefore be confident), examples are to pick the bar or restaurant for your date without hesitation (knowing some cool, interesting places is extremely helpful), choosing wine for both of you with a meal, and eventually going for a goodnight kiss. Force yourself to be bold, and you will become bold!

    One last thing - don't worry about rejection, its no big deal and at the end of the day, its THEIR loss.

    Good luck
    I was expecting this to be some kind of "how to pull the most women" thread but I was wrong. I think you gave good advice. Don't understand why there is so much neg rep.
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    (Original post by Sheldor)
    A few of my friends got into it for a while, actually. I pointed out to them that most of it was BS, but they ignored me. (They don't really see me as a girl, I'm not particularly girly so I guess I'm "one of the guys".) They saw girlygirls as completely different things rather than normal human beings to socialize with when I first met them, so they're what I'm basing it on. Once we became friends, I helped them out, so they're good now, but.PUA.gave them pretty twisted ideas.

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    Which aspects would you say are BS?

    And what advice did you give them?
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    (Original post by Sheldor)
    :lolwut:
    Yeah....no. Just, no. If I say someone insulting me or pretending to be busy or being really loud and confident would put me off, I mean it.
    Obviously if you are pretending to be busy, the point is that the girl doesn't know you are pretending. It isn't like it's hard to fake, if I say "I need to go back to my mates in a minute...", there isn't any reason to doubt that, it could easily be true.

    I'm not trying to be harsh, but girls normally don't say they like exactly the type of people they really go for.
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    girls never come to me what should I do
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    (Original post by dgeorge)
    Which aspects would you say are BS?

    And what advice did you give them?
    A lot of the putting girls down and then using that stuff was the worst, to be honest. I mostly helped them realise girls aren't total aliens by being their friend, and introducing t them to people. I also gave them advice about the specific girls they were dating, especially not to try and play games or hard to get or whatever.

    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    Obviously if you are pretending to be busy, the point is that the girl doesn't know you are pretending. It isn't like it's hard to fake, if I say "I need to go back to my mates in a minute...", there isn't any reason to doubt that, it could easily be true.

    I'm not trying to be harsh, but girls normally don't say they like exactly the type of people they really go for.
    If you kept doing that, I'd start to suspect either something was fishy or think you weren't interested in me enough to make time, which would put me off because I dont like the idea of it being overly one sided. Seriously, what is the point in that? Surely if you actually like a girl, you want to spend lots of time with her?

    For example?


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