Boys & Feminism Watch

thatgr
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#361
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#361
(Original post by kudzi.c)
I was suggesting a name change because you said you didn't like the term and what it stood for. But back to your question are you saying ditch feminism altogether?
You're trying to say that we should change the name as feminism stands for both male and female rights. The definition from my google search said "advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men"
feminism isn't about rights for men also so it is not egalitarianism. Therefore it should not be named it. Maybe your 'sector' of feminism supports men's rights too, but overall, it doesn't according to the definition. Feminism can stay as it is if it wants to, but I'd only support a real equality movement.
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kudzi.c
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#362
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#362
(Original post by there's too much love)
I call people out on things.

"dude, don't say that, you might not be homophobic but what you just said is."

"please stop glorifying/trivialising domestic violence, any victims of that don't need you to use triggering language."

The more people that give those gentle reminders the better.
Thanks for sharing, I'm all for those gentle reminders. Reminders plus patience can change cultures for the better.
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Birkenhead
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#363
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#363
(Original post by 506rl)
What I'm trying to say is that feminism has gotten a bad stigma attached to it and because of that people aren't willing to identify as so; even if they are actually feminists.
Feminism does not have a monopoly on the idea of gender equality, if it can still be said to advocate any desirable form of gender equality in this country at all.

Also, I think we do still need feminism. I've said it on this post already but there are incredibly sexist and horrible things happening in places other than the western world; even if we cannot change it directly, feminism is still needed in those kinds of places. The example I mentioned earlier was Malala Yousafzai who was shot because she spoke out against people in Pakistan for banning girls from going to school (she survived and has since won a nobel peace prize at the age of 17). Girls are forced into marriaged, raped, abused, murdered by husbands and it is considered acceptable in many countries. Yes, maybe things as extreme as that hardly ever happen in Western societies, but feminism is still needed.
I disagree, for the reason I have given above.

I posted earlier detailing why I think feminism is an ignoble movement in this country today, if you are interested; you seem more engaging than other posters: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...&postcount=163
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kudzi.c
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#364
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#364
(Original post by yo radical one)
In short, I believe that men and women should have equal rights and that gender roles should not be enforced, so by definition that would make me a feminist. At the same time, I do believe that gender-roles are largely rooted in biology and that in a society which does not promote any sort of fixed gender role, most men would naturally behave in a way which is masculine and most women would behave in a way which is feminine (ignoring pointless comments about "what defines masculine and feminine behaviours").


I also feel that the Western world rewards men who show feminine traits and rewards women who behave like uncultured "LADs". If a man gets into a fight (even if he had good reason...) or does anything which might seem confrontational, many people see that as extreme and unnerving. Equally women getting drunk and generally behaving badly is usually met with a "you go girl" type, round of applause.
I do see what you mean, I see lots of girls being criticised for being 'girly' when it seems like a pointless argument. Thanks for sharing your opinion. And can I just make it clear, I'm not trying to convert guys to feminism (esp by taking up the name) I'm just trying to get inside your heads and see where you're coming from.
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kudzi.c
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#365
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#365
(Original post by thatgr)
You're trying to say that we should change the name as feminism stands for both male and female rights. The definition from my google search said "advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men"
feminism isn't about rights for men also so it is not egalitarianism. Therefore it should not be named it. Maybe your 'sector' of feminism supports men's rights too, but overall, it doesn't according to the definition. Feminism can stay as it is if it wants to, but I'd only support a real equality movement.
Thanks for sharing, and for allowing us feminists to stick around even if you don't agree with us
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kudzi.c
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#366
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#366
(Original post by infairverona)
I feel a bit bad saying it, as I'm female myself, but I'm really quite bored of feminism now. I've never met anyone who genuinely thinks men and women should not be equal, but the only 'feminists' I've ever encountered be it online or in the real world have been extremist, man-hating, bra-burning feminist types. It's a shame that some people ruin it for everyone else but whenever I read anything about 'feminism' now it just makes me do the biggest eye roll ever.

Plus I don't agree with it being called 'feminism' anyway, it should be egalitarianism or something.
Thanks for sharing, if you ever need to talk to a feminist who loves cute bras and doesn't hate men give me I shout. As for extremist, I don't know what qualifies as extremist in your views but I think I'm not too bad!
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James Milibanter
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#367
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#367
(Original post by Smash Bandicoot)
Honest to God my 'feminist' Facebook friend reposted a homeless depressed man with a 'what about men?' placard from the BBC Debate page and told him to [sic] man the **** up.[/sic] Trust me there's some ****ty double standard and rationalisations going on, especially with the younger ones
Anecdotal evidence will not get you anywhere in a debate such as this, just because someone who claims to be a feminist has a controversial opinion it does not mean that feminism is not needed.
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yo radical one
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#368
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#368
(Original post by kudzi.c)
I do see what you mean, I see lots of girls being criticised for being 'girly' when it seems like a pointless argument. Thanks for sharing your opinion. And can I just make it clear, I'm not trying to convert guys to feminism (esp by taking up the name) I'm just trying to get inside your heads and see where you're coming from.
Exactly.


I support free choice, but it seems that if anything, modern society, far from enforcing gender roles or even supporting the right to choose, pushes people towards the inverse.
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kudzi.c
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#369
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#369
(Original post by BobbieShamrock)
What I want is for feminists to understand that just because someone doesn't support feminism, doesn't mean they are against gender equality. This applies to women as well as men.
I've seen countless tumblr posts claiming that women who don't identify as feminists are either stupid, in denial, or even sexist. Feminists say they support all women yet they are the ones who pass the harshest judgement on them.
This is one of the reasons why I don't want to identify as a feminist.
I personally call myself a feminist but as long as we're fighting for the same thing, I don't give a flying **** about what you want to call yourself. I don't see feminism who don't believe in dumb etc, BUT that's me personally and I am not a spokeswoman for all feminists.
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Smash Bandicoot
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#370
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#370
(Original post by James Milibanter)
Anecdotal evidence will not get you anywhere in a debate such as this, just because someone who claims to be a feminist has a controversial opinion it does not mean that feminism is not needed.
your entire 'men can't cry we are oppressed by patriarchy' thing was anecdotal.
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kudzi.c
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#371
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#371
(Original post by 506rl)
The bottom line is that the word "feminism" has such a stigma attached to it for people who don't consider themselves so; they assume that everyone who is a "feminist" is actually a "radical feminist", meaning that they assume anyone who calls themself a feminist automatically hates men, is a lesbian, refuses to shave, etc etc (not that there is anything wrong with being a lesbian or refusing to shave, but unfortunately this is the stigma attached to it), and they just tut and roll their eyes.

If you ask any reasonable person "do you believe in gender equality?" they will reply with "yes". That makes them, to an extent, at least slightly feminist even if they do not realise it. The problem is not the concept; the problem is the word. People just need to realise that feminists and radical feminists are different.

(...) Most people don't have the time or require too much time to have these things explaining to them, and that is another reason why it is hard to convince someone who isn't a feminist already to become one.

It shoudl also be noted that I do know some boys who are feminists, and some girls who apply to this whole "feminism is stupid" outlook on feminism.

Hopefully it will start finally changing in the future though
What would be your ideal future then? In about three lines, and thanks for sharing your opinion.
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radicalboujie
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#372
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#372
(Original post by kudzi.c)
Of course the definition isn't universal, its hard getting so many women to agree on the same thing. So if women of colour shouldn't bother with feminism, men are wasting their time too?
No, I don't believe that men can label themselves feminists however I do agree that men should be made aware of the ills of patriarchy and how it disadvantages men aswell as women. With feminism however, as I explained racial issues are heavily ignored and as I said before women of colour are erased of their work as helping their communities and it's shifted to oh "becky saving this town of poor brown oppressed women" . Inequality of races exist within feminism.
Also my priorities concerning feminism isn't about whether a guy catcalled me on the streets or being payed 20p less than a male, but the sheer atrocities happening to women in my home country. To feminism that's a white woman's work and I should wait to be rescued by them (generalising but you get the point I hope)

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James Milibanter
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#373
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#373
(Original post by Smash Bandicoot)
your entire 'men can't cry we are oppressed by patriarchy' thing was anecdotal.
Yes it was, but my argument in the case of gender equality has more facts, figures and evidence than anyone that suggested otherwise. If you can find me any figures suggesting that the is no gender inequality then I welcome them.
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kudzi.c
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#374
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#374
(Original post by radicalboujie)
No, I don't believe that men can label themselves feminists however I do agree that men should be made aware of the ills of patriarchy and how it disadvantages men aswell as women. With feminism however, as I explained racial issues are heavily ignored and as I said before women of colour are erased of their work as helping their communities and it's shifted to oh "becky saving this town of poor brown oppressed women" . Inequality of races exist within feminism.
Also my priorities concerning feminism isn't about whether a guy catcalled me on the streets or being payed 20p less than a male, but the sheer atrocities happening to women in my home country. To feminism that's a white woman's work and I should wait to be rescued by them (generalising but you get the point I hope)

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I do get your point. And of course I believe you should fight for things that affect you at home as a feminist or as yourself or a womanist etc. And it does make it harder fighting race and gender battles, but for me personally I'm willing to do both as a feminist and as a black girl looking for equality... Call yourself whatever as long as we're making a change.
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Birkenhead
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#375
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#375
(Original post by radicalboujie)
No, I don't believe that men can label themselves feminists
Let me get this straight. As a feminist, you want gender equality, but you do not believe that men should be able to call themselves 'feminists' purely on account of their gender.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.
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CatnipGlows
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#376
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#376
I agree that we shouldn't be regarding it as 'feminism' any more, it is gender equality. There are too many extremist feminists who are poisoning the image for everyone, and so labelling people as feminists could be a step in the wrong direction.

But I think it would be good to get men more aware of the issues with gender equality these days.. a lot of people are so ignorant.
For example, with two men I dated, whenever I even mentioned about gender equality (which really wasn't that often) along the lines of equal pay, and such, they would just snort and say 'uch, you're such a feminist.'

I think people need to be made more aware of how gender inequality can affect them, not just women but also for men.
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Birkenhead
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#377
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#377
(Original post by abbiemac)
I agree that we shouldn't be regarding it as 'feminism' any more, it is gender equality. There are too many extremist feminists who are poisoning the image for everyone, and so labelling people as feminists could be a step in the wrong direction.

But I think it would be good to get men more aware of the issues with gender equality these days.. a lot of people are so ignorant.
For example, with two men I dated, whenever I even mentioned about gender equality (which really wasn't that often) along the lines of equal pay, and such, they would just snort and say 'uch, you're such a feminist.'

I think people need to be made more aware of how gender inequality can affect them, not just women but also for men.
Do you have any reason to believe that women are paid less than men for the same work - which is surely the only instance where it would be acceptable to ensure they are paid the same - ?
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Ki Yung Na
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#378
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#378
(Original post by kudzi.c)
Thanks for the opinion. What type of idiots do you mean, or rather what do these idiots say?

The type that give it a bad reputation. The sort that just want men to kneel over and worship them - worst off is when they won't admit it but their actions suggest so, and should one accuse them of such, that poor person will be in for a rough time.

Of course I'm not saying all feminists are like this, It's just that these are the ones who appear too often under this label, that's why I haven't got anything against feminism but rather those kinds of feminists. And as I said I strongly believe those who don't appear like that are probably quite happy to be seen acting for equality be it a woman or a man hence why I referred to gender equality.

Either way when someone' having a hard time, we should help them, not in turn go about giving others a hard time - which is what the "dislikeable" feminists tend to do, but alas that is the same for many other sorts of people and their ideologies and their problems. In the end humans are such a strange bunch.
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Smash Bandicoot
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#379
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#379
(Original post by James Milibanter)
Yes it was, but my argument in the case of gender equality has more facts, figures and evidence than anyone that suggested otherwise. If you can find me any figures suggesting that the is no gender inequality then I welcome them.
I never said there was no gender inequality, I said that radical feminists are alienating men from a noble cause by vocally invalidating the men's own social problems on account of them being white men, and then calling them out as misogynists if they don't agree with everything they say (which often can be boiled down to 'all men are evil rapists')

Tumblr feminism has a lot to answer for and is not a fair representation of feminism.
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Smash Bandicoot
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#380
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#380
(Original post by Ki Yung Na)
The type that give it a bad reputation. The sort that just want men to kneel over and worship them - worst off is when they won't admit it but their actions suggest so, and should one accuse them of such, that poor person will be in for a rough time.

Of course I'm not saying all feminists are like this, It's just that these are the ones who appear too often under this label, that's why I haven't got anything against feminism but rather those kinds of feminists.
And as I said I strongly believe those who don't appear like that are probably quite happy to be seen acting for equality be it a woman or a man hence why I referred to gender equality.

Either way when someone' having a hard time, we should help them, not in turn go about giving others a hard time - which is what the "dislikeable" feminists tend to do, but alas that is the same for many other sorts of people and their ideologies and their problems. In the end humans are such a strange bunch.
absolutely this
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