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cant stand religion bashers watch

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    (Original post by Pride)
    Why bother, only for you to not take on board anything I say? There's no point in wasting all that time. You aren't interested.

    I've spoken to many atheists on these topics, and it's interesting how people respond so varyingly. Some people follow the reasoning that shows the contradictions in their views.
    Point out the apparent contradictions or leave. It's laughable how quickly you've had to eat your words with regards to the apparent flaws in my views (apparently of a great enough number that you offered to make a list) -- almost as laughable as the excuses presented to justify your lack of elaboration. 'There's no point.' 'You aren't interested.' Give me a break. Several posts after offering, you still refuse to list these flaws and contradictions. I can only assume that they don't exist and, like most of what you say, it was said for effect.

    Some will just insult you, claiming that they know much more science than you, and the problem is your lack of knowledge.
    Yeah, I know one guy like that. You.

    You implied earlier that you are going to go into higher education to do a science course. So you mean that you are in sixth-form/college?
    No.

    I mean, the audacity to assume that I'm less qualified than you, even though you're still at school.
    Except I've assumed no such thing, so your point doesn't follow. Nice straw man, though. I'm really beginning to love the number of times you and Treblebee have put words in my mouth to justify your phony outrage. Keep it going -- I know how difficult it is for you to win an argument without employing every fallacy known to man.

    As far as assumptions go, I think you made a pretty big one in assuming I'm still at school, which is not to justify the piss poor reasoning that follows for you to come to your conclusion.

    One does not need to study at university to see where you're wrong.
    I didn't say that one does. My, oh my. Looks like somebody is in the mood for assumptions.

    You just gloss over the points and call them hogwash.
    Really? Now that really is an unfair criticism -- every single one of my replies to you has gone over the quoted post point by point (kinda like this one...), often reaching an unattractive length as a result. By comparison, almost every single one of your replies to me doesn't respond to even half the quoted post and, in this particular one that I'm replying to now, cuts out everything but the final paragraph without addressing a single point in the long essay that precedes it. I presume that this is because you've nothing to say to the omitted sections, but you still seem to want to save face by replying with a 'you just don't understand/are not interested' type complaint.

    When you've addressed my rebuttals to your point, you can lecture me on glossing over points. Until then, you're talking hogwash. 'Gloss over points.' Pah. What a ****ing cheek you've got accusing me of that when it's all you've been doing this whole time.

    Your naturalist worldview dictates 'determinism', yet you refuse to see the futility of condemning someone for their choices if this is the case. I could go on, but like I said, there's no point.
    You could go on, but you have no point that could stand up to scrutiny so you won't. All that bluster about there being a long list of flaws and contradictions evaporated pretty quickly when I took you up on the offer.
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    Ahem, that would make Faith no special thing, as everyone would have it. Instead, God requires us to have faith in something with everyone around jeering blindly. Jesus told us that "blessed are those who believe without seeing". This seems to be a feat which many people on this thread cannot accomplish.
    I would like to propose that many people on this thread don't want to accomplish that feat. Why would I want to believe without seeing just for the sake of some blessing? There aren't too many fans of believing without seeing among those who think rationally.

    I'm getting quite sick of this debate, as @Hydeman seems quite determined to nit-pick, and close his ears to the truth.
    It's not my fault that this supposed truth of yours can only be received by those who don't scrutinise ('nitpick') their opponent's arguments.
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    (Original post by Treblebee)
    Ahem, that would make Faith no special thing, as everyone would have it. Instead, God requires us to have faith in something with everyone around jeering blindly. Jesus told us that "blessed are those who believe without seeing". This seems to be a feat which many people on this thread cannot accomplish.
    What absolutely absurd and fallacious reasoning. Faith is not meant to be reserved to a special few. Religionists constantly bang on about God wanting all of his children to be saved and he would thus rejoice and desire everyone to have faith.

    If he doesn't want everyone to have faith then he doesn't want everyone to be saved, it's as simple as that.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    Actually the love of money is the root of all evil.
    Actually the greed of money is the root of evil. And the root of all evil is... ignorance... or the lack of wisdom.

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    (Original post by JW22)
    ...Life is all about experiences...
    That's bullshiz.
    No point working hard for a good life when it's all going to be taken away from you anyway. Once you're dead you won't remember shiz.

    What if you die before you get all the experience you wanted? Will that be waste of your life?

    Once your dead, the way you lived will not matter. Whether you spent your life rotting in jail or running dozen charities for the poor. It won't matter in the end.


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    (Original post by taeffa)
    That's bullshiz.
    No point working hard for a good life when it's all going to be taken away from you anyway. Once you're dead you won't remember shiz.

    What if you die before you get all the experience you wanted? Will that be waste of your life?

    Once your dead, the way you lived will not matter. Whether you spent your life rotting in jail or running dozen charities for the poor. It won't matter in the end.


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    You've misunderstood what I've said. What I'm trying to say is that we do all die, at the end of the day there is probably not going to be an afterlife, so enjoy yourself because everything you do is an experience. I'm not trying to say life should be all about getting experience in a particular area.

    Religion tries to define morality and that will define what you will spend your life doing, which will determine the kind of life you have, which like you said in the end it doesn't matter as no one makes it out alive. So my point is do what you enjoy and don't let a stupid Religious doctrine stand in the way of telling you what's right and wrong. Superficial **** like lots of money and a good career is great, but they should only be there to give you the best experiences you can get or they should be experiences. You're only alive for about 100 years if you're lucky, fill it with good experiences because nothing else matters in the end.
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    (Original post by skunkboy)
    Actually the greed of money is the root of evil. And the root of all evil is... ignorance... or the lack of wisdom.

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    He was directly quoting the bible. 'The love of money is the root of all evil.'

    (Original post by JW22)
    You've misunderstood what I've said. What I'm trying to say is that we do all die, at the end of the day there is probably not going to be an afterlife, so enjoy yourself because everything you do is an experience. I'm not trying to say life should be all about getting experience in a particular area.
    How do you know the probability of the existence of an afterlife? Do you have any evidence to suggest that the afterlife probably doesn't exist?

    Religion tries to define morality and that will define what you will spend your life doing, which will determine the kind of life you have, which like you said in the end it doesn't matter as no one makes it out alive. So my point is do what you enjoy and don't let a stupid Religious doctrine stand in the way of telling you what's right and wrong. Superficial **** like lots of money and a good career is great, but they should only be there to give you the best experiences you can get or they should be experiences. You're only alive for about 100 years if you're lucky, fill it with good experiences because nothing else matters in the end.
    What you're saying basically amounts to, 'let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die,' a quote from the bible. It's not a new philosophy, it's one that has been held by many people down the years.

    Consider this though. If everybody believed in this idea that there was no afterlife, no supernatural realm, simply this life and then death, what would happen? If everybody was to follow your advice to 'do what you enjoy', do you think that you would be able to do what you enjoy? What if what somebody wants to do would infringe on your enjoyment, health or safety? Or your children's? Or your wife's? Can you come up with examples where it's important that certain people don't do what they enjoy for your or your family's sake? What would happen if everybody thought like you, that 'nothing else matters in the end', just that we should 'fill [life] with good experiences'?

    What if the rich followed your advice, and their desire was to want even more money? Would the poor not get poorer? Would living standards not fall to new lows? Would we not have an untouchable political elite? Would higher poverty not lead to more crime? The world's economies depend on globalisation too, so would we not have wars?

    Do you see how we already have all these problems? Clearly, many of the problems we are all faced with everyday are caused by people following advice like the kind you've given. Human selfishness is the cause of our problem, it's not religion. That's like saying that bad weather causes bad moods. The problem is in the person.
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    (Original post by Pride)
    How do you know the probability of the existence of an afterlife? Do you have any evidence to suggest that the afterlife probably doesn't exist?
    Of course I don't know the exact probability. It is possible an afterlife could exist, but because of the inconsistencies within religion and how illogical the idea is makes it unbelievable and very improbable, how can such a supposedly omnipotent and omniscient deity create such a flawed and stupid religion? Also if there is an afterlife what are the chances you are even following the correct religion to benefit from that afterlife? If you spend your life following Christianity and Islam is the right religion you have just spent your life following a pointless religion, even though there is an afterlife.

    Such a smart God would never create such a stupid religion so that makes it highly improbable to start with, and if you consider for the sake of argument there are only 3 religions, Christianity, Hinduism and Islam, you have a 1 in 3 chance of a good afterlife. Now if you consider how many religions there are, we might not even know the correct religion yet so the probability is incredibly small.

    Please enlighten me with the evidence that there is any logical reason to believe other than fear in an afterlife?
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    Before I make my comment, I'd like to say that I am both a scientist and Christian, so I fully support the two ideas and actually believe they work cohesively.

    Here's a link explaining the concept of measuring time and measuring effect:
    https://quantumweird.wordpress.com/2...es-time-exist/

    To maybe counter the logic of science and proof, you could say that time, numbers and science is the way in which humans are able to fathom and comprehend the concept of reality. "Time" has come about to make logic of the passing of reality's events; humans are organisms with consciousness that seek "comfort" in the ability to quantify unfathomable events of reality. The big bang supposedly started the universe, but using our limited human concepts of the way the universe works, we are able to come up with an explanation that makes logic of an event beyond human comprehension or invention. You could argue that "time" isn't real, that the world did not form billions of years ago, and that even the word "billion" is not a real quantifying measurement of anything. Yet we chose to believe in "numbers", "time" and "science" because of the environmental and physical effects it has on our perception of reality. How are we sure that anything exists if we have limited it all to what the human mind can understand?

    Religion and the concept of God is just as credible as the use of "time" is used to quantify passing reality. In a way, we can measure God's existence through the many "events" catalysed by His existence i.e. the ability for humans to express love, the concept of death, how the first particle in reality's existence or even how humans gained the ability to have conscious. Quoting from the link above: "However, we can measure but we cannot see. We can observe the effects but not the event", you can see a similar derivative in regards to the formation of the concept of God: we use God as a means to contextualise many things that we cannot explain. "God" is man's concept of something that may exist outside our knowledge i.e. a higher entity/living spiritual consciousness, just as "science" is everyone's explanation of the function of everything. But this does not mean He is not real, it means that religion is like quantum physics or biology; just as time is a human invention - the concept of time itself is not.

    So everyone saying that God does not exist needs to wonder if anything we believe in is actually real. Everyone is just as naïve as each other (in a non-negative way) and that we all need to respect each other's methods of making sense of reality. We need to call out way more important things in life rather than arguing with systems of belief which encourage peace and humble existence.

    FYI, I personally do not accept that conflicts linked to religion are caused by religion itself: conflicts are caused by the misrepresentation of spiritual law and ideas, and are falsely committed in the name of religion. i.e. terrorism is not taught in Islam, sexual abuse is not taught in Christianity etc.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Of course you can! I will make a different judgement of you if, despite copious well-attested evidence to the contrary, you choose to believe that the story of Noah's Ark is literally true and that there really was a worldwide flood, than if you don't.
    Well having studied religious studies previously, there are many ways in which you can interpret the parables of the bible i.e. conservative, liberal etc. I personally interpret this story as a passage explaining the power of God's communication and influence on people's behaviour and maybe hints of righteous violence which may or may not be misinterpreted, but that's something I don't think you'd like to read about!

    But really you need to question yourself: how is people believing this particular parable (just using this as an example) detrimental to your own well-being/ other people's well-being? And do you really need to intervene and tell people to not believe it? Because after all, I'm pretty sure that there are no hidden messages telling people to kill each other or commit acts of violence

    You can judge me, I don't really mind; in the end we're all just people on the internet who will never meet. But I appreciate your opinion!
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    You didn't answer my other questions. What would happen if everybody followed your advice? Anyway.

    (Original post by JW22)
    Of course I don't know the exact probability. It is possible an afterlife could exist, but because of the inconsistencies within religion and how illogical the idea is makes it unbelievable and very improbable, how can such a supposedly omnipotent and omniscient deity create such a flawed and stupid religion?
    Ok, over that point alone, one could argue for ages. I bet for every single supposed 'inconsistency' or contradiction you could suggest in the bible, I could refute them. In fact, somebody else on the internet would have already done that. It's only a google search away. The bible is a collection of 66 books that have been studied by academics for years. You won't find an inconsistency in there that cannot be debated. I don't think you can use that as a basis for the belief that there 'probably' isn't an afterlife.

    I'd also ask you, what about the consistencies? What about the hundreds of prophecies made in the old testament, that come to pass in the new testament and are still coming to pass in the present? What about the fact that the books of the bible were written by many different writers, over thousands of years, in different locations, yet they coincide? What about the fact that the Jews still exist today, and are continually hated and fought against?

    Also if there is an afterlife what are the chances you are even following the correct religion to benefit from that afterlife? If you spend your life following Christianity and Islam is the right religion you have just spent your life following a pointless religion, even though there is an afterlife.
    You see, I think this is a good question. But I think the answer lies in the theology. I don't think the answer 'well then there probably isn't an afterlife' is a logical answer to the question, but that's the one you give. No, instead you would study the scriptures, considering their claims. Perhaps then you could know which, if any, were true. You certainly couldn't do that by just saying 'well they're probably all untrue'. One could easily be true, and then the others lies.

    Personally, I believe in the bible. It stands up to scrutiny. It explains what I see around me. It explains Islam and Judaism. So I considered what Jesus claimed about himself, considered following his instructions, and I believe that it has changed my life. I don't believe this is an intellectual exercise, although it stands strong against intellectual debate (because it's true, I would argue). At the end of the day, I don't believe people can crack God intellectually, this is a spiritual thing - 'God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.'

    Such a smart God would never create such a stupid religion so that makes it highly improbable to start with, and if you consider for the sake of argument there are only 3 religions, Christianity, Hinduism and Islam, you have a 1 in 3 chance of a good afterlife. Now if you consider how many religions there are, we might not even know the correct religion yet so the probability is incredibly small.

    Please enlighten me with the evidence that there is any logical reason to believe other than fear in an afterlife?
    Ok I find this the most unwise section of your post. Such a smart God? You assume that you are smart. Not just smart actually, infallible. But if God exists, he would only have to be smarter than you. You are telling me that there is 'probably' no afterlife, but you don't know the probability of that. 1) You haven't approached the theology. 2) We only know of one existence, so you couldn't make a comparison and say 'well that existence has no afterlife, therefore our one probably doesn't'. There either is an afterlife, or there isn't one. There's no probability.

    A god would only have to be smarter than you, and instantly your argument fails.

    I also don't believe that people believe that Jesus is Lord through fear of the afterlife. I believe that it's through the holy spirit. Of course I would say this, but hey, that's what the bible says, and there's no evidence to suggest otherwise. The bible does instruct people to 'fear the Lord', but it's a different kind of fear. One that adheres to his words - according to the bible, 'man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' The bible claims that people depend on God's words. We are the result of them.

    You may say, religion is for the weak-minded. But really, open your eyes. Those that say that they are strong - do they really believe that God probably doesn't exist because of their strength and self-esteem? Of course not. There's much more to it than that. Besides, this world truly is bleak. Are we not all weak? We all have needs, nobody is self-sufficient. We need the universe and all its forces to be consistent. I could go on and on about our weaknesses. Look at the continual wars. Look at the continual poverty.
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    (Original post by StudentInSociety)
    But really you need to question yourself: how is people believing this particular parable (just using this as an example) detrimental to your own well-being/ other people's well-being? And do you really need to intervene and tell people to not believe it?
    This assumes that something shouldn't be judged unless it's detrimental to somebody's well-being, and that judgement = intervention. I don't see why that should necessarily be the case.

    Because after all, I'm pretty sure that there are no hidden messages telling people to kill each other or commit acts of violence
    Not in this particular parable, but the Bible is otherwise rife with plenty of non-hidden messages telling people to kill each other and commit acts of violence. The Bible doesn't seem to care about hiding its calls to violence.
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    (Original post by Pride)
    Personally, I believe in the bible. It stands up to scrutiny. It explains what I see around me.
    The comedic value of this statement is difficult to overstate.
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    (Original post by driftawaay)
    If I could eradicate one thing from this planet, it would be religion. It is the root of all evil.
    Not really. Ignorance and greed.

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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Not in this particular parable, but the Bible is otherwise rife with plenty of non-hidden messages telling people to kill each other and commit acts of violence. The Bible doesn't seem to care about hiding its calls to violence.
    Name the commandments which are calling to violence.
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    (Original post by StudentInSociety)
    But really you need to question yourself: how is people believing this particular parable (just using this as an example) detrimental to your own well-being/ other people's well-being?
    Believing it is not, in itself a problem. Worthy of adverse judgement, yes, but not a problem.

    It becomes a problem when, as is so often the case, people who believe it harm others by, for instance, indoctrinating their children to believe it or by insisting it should be taught as part of science or history courses in schools alongside science and history, as part of the creation hypothesis.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Name the commandments which are calling to violence.
    You obviously forget that the commandments did not actually stop after the most famous ten. Are the following violent enough for you? They are all commandments and immediately follow the ten, undifferentiated.

    If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

    But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

    Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death.


    Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

    Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. [It is fortunate for young people generally that selective acceptance is at work, eh?]

    Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal is to be put to death.

    Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    You obviously forget that the commandments did not actually stop after the most famous ten. Are the following violent enough for you? They are all commandments and immediately follow the ten, undifferentiated.

    If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

    But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

    Anyone who attacks their father or mother is to be put to death.

    Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

    Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. [It is fortunate for young people generally that selective acceptance is at work, eh?]

    Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal is to be put to death.

    Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed.
    Calling to set free slaves (after 6 years) is call to violence?
    Calling to punish the attackers of parents is call to violence?
    Calling to punish kidnappers is call to violence?
    Calling to punish those who curses their parents is call to violence?
    Today you can consider death penalty used 3000 years ago as a very cruel punishment, but in no way as a call to violence.
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    (Original post by admonit)
    Calling to set free slaves (after 6 years) is call to violence?
    Calling to punish the attackers of parents is call to violence?
    Calling to punish kidnappers is call to violence?
    Calling to punish those who curses their parents is call to violence?
    Today you can consider death penalty used 3000 years ago as a very cruel punishment, but in no way as a call to violence.
    You missed the bit about pinning the servant to the door, then? And killing people who worship other gods? If an injunction to kill people who curse their parents isn't a call to violence (and for a trivial reason) then I don't know what is.

    How violent are the righteous in their insensitivity to what is civilized.
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    (Original post by Pride)
    You didn't answer my other questions. What would happen if everybody followed your advice? Anyway.
    Sorry I didn’t realise you asked me more than the first.

    What would happen if everybody follow my advise? Basically what you’re implying is that if everyone followed my advise there would be anarchy? I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it but there is something called the Law which defines our rights in society so that we can do what we like in an equal and fair manner that it doesn’t affect others. Those who don’t abide by the law are punished.

    What if the rich followed my advise and resulted in what you have said? Revolution, that’s what democracy is about.I never said religion caused all the problems you state, I was saying religion puts barriers in the way of your decisions based on the religious doctrine which will adversely affect the experiences you can have in your life.

    Also because of the inconsistencies in the Bible you cannot trust any of it. Genesis claims God created the earth and the heavens and then he created light (the sun). This is obviously written by someone who wasn’t aware of how the Universe works, e.g a man (not the word of God) alive before the 14th century. The Copernican revolution proved that the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around so Genesis should start something like first God created the Universe, then the sun, then the earth and the planets otherwise it doesn’t make sense. If you can’t trust the first few lines of the bible how can you trust any of it, even if it has somehow predicted future events. If you throw enough **** some of it will stick.
 
 
 
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