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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    If that compromise consistently went against what is right for myself I would have no issues with leaving them. Funnily enough you seemed unable to contend the point. Instead of saying how we would reform when we have failed for half s century and couldn't with the threat of leaving you merely said that we should submit to going into a direction that Britain does not want to go in.

    Are you a Euro federalist?

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    But that is the compromise in in this country too. I am sitting helpless as the Tories destroy the NHS, the education system and local services. They have gone against their manifesto promises, attacked the poor whilst giving tax breaks to the rich. They have eroded workers rights and general wrecked the place. Theresa May wants to spy on us in the name of anti terrorism but I don't buy that. It is thanks to the EU that we have a small chance of not living in 1984.

    The EU is more perfect than imperfect although Brexit only seem to see the disadvantages. I am less concerned about reform than the disaster awaiting the UK if we left.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Except for the fact that 10% of MEPs represent the UK. I don't really see how making up 10% of a vote between 28 countries is "having no say"...
    19 of those 28 countries are in the EMU - the Eurozone - they have achieved Stage 1 of Union: this is why we are having a referendum, it was the gripe of the Tories who pushed Cameron into it. (7 will join EMU later)

    So, there are two effective countries in the EU: The Eurozone and the UK. The Eurozone has 90% of the vote. Does this mean you have a say and "influence"?

    Even if you absolutely refuse to acknowledge that Stage 2 of EMU union is under way or likely to be achieved by 2025 you must acknowledge we have a 2 speed EU and eventually there will be a crunch point where 90% of the vote is in the hands of the fast-track countries and the UK is marginalised. The UK's relations with the EU are going to go "crunch!" in 9 to 40 years whatever. So don't vote Remain if it is obvious that you would want to leave later!
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    19 of those 28 countries are in the EMU - the Eurozone - they have achieved Stage 1 of Union: this is why we are having a referendum, it was the gripe of the Tories who pushed Cameron into it. (7 will join EMU later)

    So, there are two effective countries in the EU: The Eurozone and the UK. The Eurozone has 90% of the vote. Does this mean you have a say and "influence"?

    Even if you absolutely refuse to acknowledge that Stage 2 of EMU union is under way or likely to be achieved by 2025 you must acknowledge we have a 2 speed EU and eventually there will be a crunch point where 90% of the vote is in the hands of the fast-track countries and the UK is marginalised. The UK's relations with the EU are going to go "crunch!" in 9 to 40 years whatever. So don't vote Remain if it is obvious that you would want to leave later!
    So your issue with the EU is that we don't have more influence/representation even though its proportional to our population and it would be unfair to other countries if we had more? Also its not like when a country joins the Eurozone they immediately agree with them in the EU parliament each. Each country in the Eurozone will still disagree with the others from time to time even Germany and France disagree. Just because the system is fair giving each country the number of MEPs based on its population. Also Denmark has an opt out like us on the Euro.

    These problems with us being marginalised arise because we are simply unwilling to get more involved with the EU which is on us to sort out. It would be unfair and undemocratic for the EU to give us half the MEPs when we only have about 8.6% of the total population of the EU and as such we should have about 8-9% of the MEPs but we have 9.7% so we're actually overrepresented and have more influence/power than we should have.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    But that is the compromise in in this country too. I am sitting helpless as the Tories destroy the NHS, the education system and local services. They have gone against their manifesto promises, attacked the poor whilst giving tax breaks to the rich. They have eroded workers rights and general wrecked the place. Theresa May wants to spy on us in the name of anti terrorism but I don't buy that. It is thanks to the EU that we have a small chance of not living in 1984.

    The EU is more perfect than imperfect although Brexit only seem to see the disadvantages. I am less concerned about reform than the disaster awaiting the UK if we left.
    I see, you're one of these tin foil hatters that thinks the Tories are doing what you think they should be doing as those evil Tories rather than what they're actually doing, that explains everything. Care to prove half the claims? We also come back to this hilarious bremainer state of "I don't want democracy because currently democracy gave an outcome I disagree with!" By any chance are you one of those people that goes and protests at election results you don't like?
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    (Original post by Pmh1)
    So your issue with the EU is that we don't have more influence/representation even though its proportional to our population and it would be unfair to other countries if we had more? Also its not like when a country joins the Eurozone they immediately agree with them in the EU parliament each. Each country in the Eurozone will still disagree with the others from time to time even Germany and France disagree. Just because the system is fair giving each country the number of MEPs based on its population. Also Denmark has an opt out like us on the Euro.

    These problems with us being marginalised arise because we are simply unwilling to get more involved with the EU which is on us to sort out. It would be unfair and undemocratic for the EU to give us half the MEPs when we only have about 8.6% of the total population of the EU and as such we should have about 8-9% of the MEPs but we have 9.7% so we're actually overrepresented and have more influence/power than we should have.
    No it isn't...


    So in the parliament we have one of the highest population per MEP, and in the govenrment we have, well, exactly the same number of seats as everybody else, so despite having 12.something% we don't even have 4% of the seats, while Malta has less than 0.1% of the population, but also just under 4% of the seats.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    That is simply not true. We have a seat at the table. We have a voice and others listen to us just as we listen to them. Finally our MEPs vote on all legislation. And they too have a voice and others listen. It isn't reported on a daily basis but we are a strong voice in the EU. Stronger than you give credit for.
    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Except for the fact that 10% of MEPs represent the UK. I don't really see how making up 10% of a vote between 28 countries is "having no say"...
    How many times has the UK successfully voted down or vetoed legislation that would hurt it?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I see, you're one of these tin foil hatters that thinks the Tories are doing what you think they should be doing as those evil Tories rather than what they're actually doing, that explains everything. Care to prove half the claims? We also come back to this hilarious bremainer state of "I don't want democracy because currently democracy gave an outcome I disagree with!" By any chance are you one of those people that goes and protests at election results you don't like?
    No I don't protest after elections. The Tories got in fair and square. But their education policy is horrendous. Why on earth does a year 6 pupil need to know about past participles? My 6 year old son knows what trigraphs and digraphs are. Why? Do you know? The joy of creativity in learning has been replaced by learning pointless facts that are utterly meaningless and the poor teachers are left picking up the pieces. The the deregulation of education through academies now sees some head teachers earning £250k+ whilst schools are now permitted to employ unqualified teachers on pay less that £18k. It is a total mess for which there is no recourse. Basically these schools are accountable to no one.

    We then have the new junior doctors contract complete shash up. And now the government have student nurses in their sights. Libraries are closing down left right and centre and the homeless litter our streets in scenes even worse than the last time the Tories were in at the early 90s. I can't think of one progressive positive thing they have done. They are a party of wreckers.

    But it is ok. Those earning good money now pay less tax so that is something.
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    In, I want to go to a german uni, and the only way for it to be free is if we stay in

    #stayin
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    How many times has the UK successfully voted down or vetoed legislation that would hurt it?
    No idea. But we aren't in schengun, we aren't in the Euro, we have an opt out on closer union, and don't sign up to the same rules on migration, internal affairs or security. I would say we are doing ok. Most of the legislation that comes our way is around keeping the single market a level playing field. For example mobile roaming charges or flight compensation. We have a say in that right now. When we leave it will simply be imposed on us if we wish to remain in the single market. And despite what you may have heard, the U.K. needs the EU much more than they need us.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    No idea. Nut we aren't in schengun, we aren't in the Euro, we have an opt out on closer union, and don't sign up to the same rules on migration, internal affairs or security. I would say we are doing ok. Most of the legislation that comes our way is around keeping the single market a level playing field. We have a say in that right now. When we leave it will simply be imposed on us if we wish to remain in the single market. And despite what you may have heard, the U.K. needs the EU much more than they need us.
    "No idea."
    Someone's clearly not been doing a lot of research then

    have a wild guess
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    "No idea."
    Someone's clearly not been doing a lot of research then

    have a wild guess
    It doesn't bother me. In any democracy chances are you lose on more issues than you win. That is the nature of compromise. I hate the Tories and their current run of policies. But once in a while something like a Human Rights or Anti Discrimination against Disabilities comes along and the world becomes a slightly better place.

    Just out of curiosity, how frequently did you go out with 23 mates of differing tastes and opinions and end up in your favourite pub / restaurant / club?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    How many times has the UK successfully voted down or vetoed legislation that would hurt it?
    How many times has legislation been brought in that's hurt the UK?
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    How many times has legislation been brought in that's hurt the UK?
    How many examples do you want?


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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    How many examples do you want?
    3, and then I'll give you 6 examples of legislation introduced by our current government in the last 5 years that's hurt the UK.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    How many times has the UK successfully voted down or vetoed legislation that would hurt it?
    If we are successful, it doesn't go to a vote. That is what diplomacy is all about.

    Every time a country presses an issue to a vote, a country is merely recording dissent to an argument it has lost.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    3, and then I'll give you 6 examples of legislation introduced by our current government in the last 5 years that's hurt the UK.
    Three is easy enough: ports services regulation
    Common fisheries policy
    Tobacco Products Directive

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    Some vote in, and some vote out.
    I'd pick the shake it all about option because I've absolutely no clue what else to choose.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    No it isn't...


    So in the parliament we have one of the highest population per MEP, and in the govenrment we have, well, exactly the same number of seats as everybody else, so despite having 12.something% we don't even have 4% of the seats, while Malta has less than 0.1% of the population, but also just under 4% of the seats.
    My apologies, I didn't know the population of the EU so I quickly googled it and instead it told me that its was 742.5 million (which is all of Europe and I wasn't really paying attention) which meant I got the percentages wrong when I worked them out.

    However we have about 12.6% of the population and we have about 10% of the seats, however I suspect this is because they only want 751 seats exactly (or they only have so many seats?) and so the smaller countries with low population would end up with no seats at all so larger countries (UK, France, Germany) lose out on seats to give smaller nations a little more power so that they aren't completely marginalised and ignored. a 10% share of the seats is still fairly influential we can't just be ignored and it would be difficult for a bill to be passed if every British MEP opposed it as that bill would likely be opposed by other MEP's from other countries that think/act similarly to us.
 
 
 
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