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    (Original post by anna__)
    Literally my response summed up. Thank you. You said that perfectly.
    Thank you so much!
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    (Original post by idontknowmedoyou)
    -Only 77% of young men agree that having sex with someone who has said no is rape.
    where the **** has this stat come from
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    (Original post by elizahughes)
    Your assumption that all women feel that way is simply wrong. In fact, I've never actually met a woman who has laughed at a man's misfortune in terms of sexism (I know it does happen, but your perception is skewed).
    It happens every single day and I would say by the majority of women. Women know they can get away with things that men can't/have to be careful of for fear of being judged sexist. Can you honestly tell me that all these shows that women watch like 'take me out' wouldn't be complained about/considered sexist if they were the other way around? Can you honestly tell me all of the office jokes about a guy having 'man flu' etc would be ok if the other way around? Women will whine and moan about their objectification yet do exactly the same to men and they know that they have massive advantages in the dating game and areas like that (just don't even bother with online dating if you're not a good looking guy). In 'real life' - bars, clubs etc...women just act atrociously towards men ('because they can' ). I mean, maybe you'd need to be a man to know but if you're not experienced going out to bars/clubs and haven't seen this yourself then you'll have to trust me on it.

    (Original post by elizahughes)
    And what advantages do you think women have over men? I don't have time to read the whole thread and I want to know what you think.
    You need to read the thread - and others recently on this topic.. there have been so many points put across explaining areas where women have advantages over men which barely even get considered. I could just keep adding to them but what's the point when you post them and withing an hour it is on page 15 which people haven't got time to read.. The point is that women, and feminists too, are not actually particularly interested.


    (Original post by elizahughes)
    And you are suggesting that women are no longer oppressed, when you agreed with some of another post's statistics, and you need to consider developing countries,
    I've said that there is absolutely a need for feminism in developing countries.

    (Original post by elizahughes)
    as well as sexual harassment and rape, as well as inequality in the workplace, in the UK. They are factually unequal. Also, modern feminism does have a bad name. Otherwise I would see no point in defending it. In fact, its bad name is so obvious when people like you genuinely think women use it as a way to laugh at men!
    Inequality in the workplace is completely overblown. I've personally never seen it in 12 years of working experience working both publicly and privately and there are links in these threads discrediting it. Some of those links are articles written by women themselves. That is good news for women. What I am saying to women is that if you are young and worried that you are going to be discriminated in the workplace based on gender then it is very unlikely. In fact there are areas now where you will be preferred over men based on gender as I understand e.g STEM areas (which personally I think is BS, but that's the way things have gone). Sexual harassment and rape, sure those things should always be taken seriously. The thing is, they are taken seriously and we hear about them all the time, so much so that we simply don't hear about the issues affecting men. I will post this link again - tell me how many articles you see about sexism against men from our own British broadcaster:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/topics/sexism
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    (Original post by elizahughes)
    I do think you raise some important points, as a lot of self-proclaimed feminists don't consider the issues of men, and they are definitely not talked about as much as they should. However, this makes them misandrists and not feminists - actual feminists are doing some important things for men, such as fighting for equality in the legal system for custody of children.

    I find it sad that your views on feminism are so negative. You have made generalisations about women's opinions on men's oppression, but I'd like to repeat that these are NOT feminists, these women are sexist and need to be educated, and they give feminism a bad name.
    While I agree that they are misandrists, having learnt a lot about feminism recently and watched/read a lot of feminist material, it is very apparent that despite the fact that some 'claim' to also care about men's rights, their actions are actually very different. Any talk of men's issues is always an afterthought which is looked at from quite a condescending perspective about how it can 'also benefit women'. Not only that but it often completely fails to genuinely look at things from a male perspective. For example, I've lost count of the amount of times in the last few days that I have seen feminists on here happily state that the male suicide rate is because 'men can't open up about their emotions so feminism needs to get rid of gender roles so men can open up'. Then they resume talking about how tough they have it as women. I mean it's almost deliberate ignorance. Yeah, sure, the solution for men commuting suicide is more feminism. No point in investigating why like we do with female issues, let's just state that we need more feminism.

    (Original post by elizahughes)
    However, I need to disagree with you on a few points. Although true that many of men's struggles are hidden, they do not suffer more than women in most aspects. And of course there are issues regarding women that are now being discussed, because women have never felt like they could speak out until the feminist movement spread - but this doesn't mean they don't also have hidden issues, which, as a man, you know little about. Personally, as a white middle class straight binary woman, I don't think I experience many of these, but I would definitely consider myself oppressed in comparison to a white middle class straight binary man.
    That is just simply not true. Women today are very privileged . If you are a western woman, despite retaining all of the areas which you had advantages over men previously (just read the thread for examples!), you now suffer far less disadvantages than men in the areas which men previously may have held advantages. In fact, you may even be 'positively discriminated' against based on your gender. Not only that but you have a voice in the media and in society in general. Any woman claiming sexism will be taken far, far more seriously than a man and that is just a fact.

    (Original post by elizahughes)
    However, I think you need to look at feminism in the bigger picture, and how it helps people of colour, lower classes, and different sexualities and non-binary genders, and look into child marriage and acid attacks on poor women of colour in less developed countries.
    Less developed countries, absolutely. Ethnicities, classes etc..that is something else.

    (Original post by elizahughes)
    In reply to your comment about the media's perception of men - over 85% of newspaper editors are men. So you cannot blame women for that one. Also, many media outlets are oppressive to masses of groups of people, it is not purely men
    I can absolutely blame women for this one. It is irrelevant which gender has more newspaper editors. There is a very clear and apparent idea in society that sexism against women is important and sexism against men is unimportant. We have a lot of men who just go along with this idea purely out of conditioning, some of them to be 'the good guy'. You may have heard the term 'white knights'. That BBC link I posted is just proof of the complete lack of attention which men's issues get in the media. They feel it more important to talk about Andy Murray having a female tennis coach than they do about men committing suicide at such a high rate compared to women.


    (Original post by elizahughes)
    I'd also like to throw in a fact - black girls perform the best educationally in the UK, but are the most likely to be fired from a job within the first year. Just a reminder of how a lot of sexism is institutional and so harder to detect, amongst all genders
    That's an interesting comment which I know nothing about. Although it sounds like it may also be a race issue and perhaps a cultural issue too.

    (Original post by elizahughes)
    You are absolutely right that men's issues aren't addressed enough, but I hope I helped you to learn something new
    I'm glad we agree on that.
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    (Original post by Jd_uk)
    Ok but you mentioned things which men can do which women can't get away with. The day to day sort of issues. Like one example I'll just throw out there is that there wouldn't be a version of the TV show 'Take me out' where 30 men all judge one woman on her looks. It would be 'sexist'. Ok, I'll give you another, men believe it or not these days can feel quite uncomfortable around other peoples children because society automatically deems that women are more 'trustworthy, caring etc etc' All complete nonsense of course but people never think of females being pedophiles or violent or anything like that. There was an article in the BBC last week which showed a naked man holding his naked son in the shower and it was widely labelled 'wrong' and 'creepy'. Suggestions of pedophilia they said. The same image of a naked mother and her naked daughter was considered 'beautiful' and 'loving'. Ok, one more, it is 'ok' to have all female gyms or indeed any kind of all female club. But have an all male golf club or an all male gym - sexism - all over the news. Ok, one more, last one I promise. Have you even seen the recent social experiments showing how FUNNY the general public (and especially women) find it to see a man suffer at the hands of domestic violence from a woman? If you haven't just look it up. I mean, I could literally go on and on about the double standards and the rude and often nasty behaviour which women display on a daily basis because they know that there won't be consequences for them as a woman, but I'd be here for hours. It would be interesting, genuinely to hear about the day to day double standards affecting women as I'm sure there are some, but I know for a fact there are just not as many because society protects women in a way that it doesn't protect men. Women are 'the fairer sex' after all. We very quickly hear about issues affecting women, men need to keep quiet, 'man up' and get on with it - and that comes from women,

    Now your stats, while there is some truth to some (not all) of them, they are just stats about issues which affect women which we hear about ALL the time. My problem and argument on this thread is that we simply don't hear about the issues affecting men. They are laughed at by feminists and laughed at and ignored by the media. I have provided examples of this. Given how seriously those issues affecting women are taken, it is not right that men do not get the same respect.
    Everyday issues for women could be for example how you said men are expected to 'man up' which I don't agree with but also women are seen as weak and fragile and that if they did hit their partner it wouldn't hurt them, which is a dumb stereotype which can affect their partner as them being abused gets ignored. Other examples could be for example the typical slut shaming thing, how if a man sleeps around he's a legend and gets praised whereas a girl is a slut. Its even in the media I saw two news stories for a 'teen' type magazine where it had one story about how the band 5sos posed nude and they were saying how great it is and how they love it and another news story about miley cyrus who also posed nude basically slut shaming her for it. Also everyday I see girls shamed for either not being 'girly' or being too 'girly' for example if a girl doesn't wear makeup or dress amazingly all the time she's not putting effort in and she's not trying hard whereas if she does wear makeup then she's fake and tries to hard. I also see it everyday where girls are told how they should look by guys all the time and its not as common where girls are telling guys how they want them too look. Another one could be in magazines and in the news online for some reason I always see posts about female celebrities that are so negative, for example if they aren't looking perfect people actually write stories with misleading titles such as "(whoever) is letting themselves go" just because they gained a few pounds. I just see constant obsessions with the way girls look and its way less common with guys. Theres also this idea that women are 'emotionally unstable', some people throw around the phrase "she's on her period" when a girl is mad or emotional and it just disregards how they are feeling, a minor thing but its annoying af. Also women may feel a lot of pressure to have children as thats what their 'meant to do'. Thats just a few issues I have seen, other people could probs think of more but yeah.
    All of the issues you mentioned I agree and I think they should be talked about more and I know that most feminists do focus on women probably because of how women were treated in the past and I do think issues that men have should be talked about more. Idk I just want people to stop judging each other and their gender and I hope that in the future people don't have these stereotypes and negative ideas about men and women.
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    (Original post by idontknowmedoyou)
    Everyday issues for women could be for example how you said men are expected to 'man up' which I don't agree with but also women are seen as weak and fragile and that if they did hit their partner it wouldn't hurt them, which is a dumb stereotype which can affect their partner as them being abused gets ignored. Other examples could be for example the typical slut shaming thing, how if a man sleeps around he's a legend and gets praised whereas a girl is a slut. Its even in the media I saw two news stories for a 'teen' type magazine where it had one story about how the band 5sos posed nude and they were saying how great it is and how they love it and another news story about miley cyrus who also posed nude basically slut shaming her for it. Also everyday I see girls shamed for either not being 'girly' or being too 'girly' for example if a girl doesn't wear makeup or dress amazingly all the time she's not putting effort in and she's not trying hard whereas if she does wear makeup then she's fake and tries to hard. I also see it everyday where girls are told how they should look by guys all the time and its not as common where girls are telling guys how they want them too look. Another one could be in magazines and in the news online for some reason I always see posts about female celebrities that are so negative, for example if they aren't looking perfect people actually write stories with misleading titles such as "(whoever) is letting themselves go" just because they gained a few pounds. I just see constant obsessions with the way girls look and its way less common with guys. Theres also this idea that women are 'emotionally unstable', some people throw around the phrase "she's on her period" when a girl is mad or emotional and it just disregards how they are feeling, a minor thing but its annoying af. Also women may feel a lot of pressure to have children as thats what their 'meant to do'. Thats just a few issues I have seen, other people could probs think of more but yeah.
    All of the issues you mentioned I agree and I think they should be talked about more and I know that most feminists do focus on women probably because of how women were treated in the past and I do think issues that men have should be talked about more. Idk I just want people to stop judging each other and their gender and I hope that in the future people don't have these stereotypes and negative ideas about men and women.

    Ok, I'm going to go into quite a bit of personal detail about myself in responding to this and I'm warning you it's a bit deep but it may help you and others to understand things from a male point of view and also why I feel quite strongly about some of these issues.

    The first point you made about women being perceived as physically weaker...yes it is a stereotype. It's also a stereotype with some truth to it because on the whole women are generally physically weaker than men. Nothing wrong with that, just a biological fact. Yes it can hurt men (rather than women) re domestic violence but not as much as the idea that domestic violence against men is not as bad as domestic violence against women. I speak as a guy who was, in a sense, domestically abused by an ex girlfriend. Physically I am a very strong guy, but upon finding out that my ex had cheated on me and asking (calmly) for her to admit the truth, my ex lost the plot and drunkenly punched me in the face, scrammed me etc etc - anything to get me to leave so that she wouldn't have to admit the truth. My face was a mess afterwards but not once did I react because as a man I could never hit a woman. Physically apart from a few marks she could not hurt me, but the emotional damage of having someone who had 'loved me' for six years acting in that way and actual enjoy hurting me has never left me. I'll always struggle to trust people again after that. The emotional damage of any type of domestic violence is just as bad as anything physical. By the way, the police were called that night it happened by the neighbours as my ex was screaming at me and shouting things deliberately to play the victim (again to try to get me to leave as she didn't want to admit she'd slept with someone else). Nothing happened afterwards but I knew that I would be seen as the person in the wrong so i didn't even bother to take anything further. I knew and still know the truth. Days later my ex was extremely apologetic but the damage (mentally) was done. I know that if I had done anything similar then I would have faced prison time, lost my job etc etc.

    The slut shaming you mention - sadly I've gotten into the habit of reading the daily mail comments section. I can state with absolute certainty that the majority of negative comments on a miley cyrus article of her posing nude will come from women. The vast, vast majority. It is jealousy pure and simple. In fact there was an article this week I think which said that at least half of misogynistic tweets came from women. If Zac Efron or someone like that posts half naked pictures then the comments from women are.. well, you already know what they are like.

    The double standards of men and women sleeping around. Well, yes they do exist. But look at it from a biological perspective, or a perspective of supply and demand. What does a typical woman have to do to get sex? Make a tinder or plenty of fish account - say yes to one or two guys? Go to a bar, get on the dance floor and say yes to a guy? If you want to find out how it is for a guy then set up a fake profile with an average looking guy and see how many offers for sex you get from women...or see how hard you have to work just to get more than a basic response from a woman. Women will want sex with the best looking men only, guys will take what they can get most of the time. It is a generalization I admit, but there is truth to it. Biologically, a man's worth and ability to reproduce was down to his ability to 'spread the seed'. A woman was supposed to be careful, selective, and not necessarily just sleep with anyone because she would have to carry his baby for 9 months. Now we have contraception, sure, but these attitudes are almost innate. No matter how much anyone tries to change them, they will exist. A man will always be applauded more for his ability to get sex from women than a woman would be for her ability to get sex from men simply on the basis that a woman can typically get sex when she wants. Me personally? Would I want a girlfriend of mine to have slept with loads and loads of men previously - the honest answer is that I would prefer it if she had not. Not because of any insecurities but just because it is more attractive to me if that is not how she is. Some guys perhaps won't care but it is just the way the world that a lot of guys will care somewhat.

    Now, I'm going to quote these bits because they're kind of important:

    "Also everyday I see girls shamed for either not being 'girly' or being too 'girly' for example if a girl doesn't wear makeup or dress amazingly all the time she's not putting effort in and she's not trying hard whereas if she does wear makeup then she's fake and tries to hard. I also see it everyday where girls are told how they should look by guys all the time and its not as common where girls are telling guys how they want them too look."

    In this country and national newspapers have become complete trash. Like genuine gutter papers filled with articles about beauty, mocking people's clothing, where they went for a coffee, how much their house is worth, what happened to their weight. It's all bullsh*t. Yes, women get a raw deal here in the media. The vast majority of the negativity in the media about appearance, I'm afraid to say, comes from women. If you look at the journalists names and you look at the comments, they're overwhelmingly female. The 'what is she wearing' type remarks ...'too much for the occasion...too plain...looking way older than 30 etc etc'. You know what I'm talking about here. Now what is important to me is that you say men don't face pressure in the media or from women to look a certain way, and this is where I'm unfortunately going to have to get personal and talk about myself again.

    In the last two years I've been losing my hair. How is this relevant? Well, please click and read these articles:


    http://collegecandy.com/2009/11/24/w...rince-william/
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...ce-dreams.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...nvertible.html

    Now, this is just a very, very small selection of articles that state that if a man is losing his hair he is basically worthless and certainly not remotely attractive - i.e. 'yeah you have a nice car, but you have a bald spot'. I don't even need to mention the remarks about Prince William but please, just look at them. There are literally hundreds of articles about his hair, just his hair on the daily mail alone. There are articles on there every single day reinforcing it not just to men but also to women that if a man is bald/balding then he is ugly and failing. Now, I understand that the typical woman can't imagine what that is like for a guy but let tell you that it can be absolute torture. Why? Sadly, because the vast majority of women also agree that balding is ugly. That is just the age we live in. I was one of the guys who because I am in good shape thought ah well it's horrible and I hate it but I can shave it short and do the whole tough guy thing (because the ONLY guys who are allowed to look good bald according to the media are the action heroes - think about it if you don't believe me). Well, quite simply, I was wrong.

    You know that I mentioned online dating being harder for guys earlier? Well, I literally can't even use online dating. I mean there is simply no point now that my hair has thinned out. Because that is how shallow women are about it. I can put up a picture of me from two years ago with hair and get matches, get nice messages. A pic of me as i am now. Nothing. Zero. 200 swipes, maybe one match...from a woman with 3 kids who wants a guy to look after them. Plenty of fish and those other things? Same. Since shaving my head in the last few months I now can't really approach women in bars or clubs.. I mean, I can ...but after a while the 'ewww' type reactions start to grind your self esteem down. Women happily overlook the fact that guys have to approach girls to start relationships or get sex...it is one of natures little advantages that they are happy to accept. But let me tell you again that women are cruel and will happily tell you to 'F*ck off' if you don't match their looks criteria. Knowing that it wasn't that way when you had hair...it is hard not to feel misogynistic. This weekend I went out to a bar and was chatting with a few mates...as you can imagine my confidence aint that high at the moment so I didn't bother even trying to chat up women..instead I started chatting to some guys instead about the boxing fight they had that night. Well, five minutes in the girlfriend of the guy I was chatting to shows up ...she says to him "Who's this?" he explains he's just met me. "why are you chatting to him?" I feel a bit confused. She then turns to me and mockingly starts rubbing her head as if to say 'You're bald and ugly now F off'. Turns away before I could react with a grin like only a bullying woman could. Knowing there are no consequences to her actions...no risk of harm to herself or anything like that if a guy were to insult another guy. It was so random but i was kind of drunk and didn't really process it until I went home. I've been called names on the street...people asking me when i came out of prison, calling me a thug...had women telling me that I 'looked like a tw*t' all because I had to start shaving my head.

    I mentioned that show 'Take me out'. I watched a bald guy on that show come out and immediately most of the lights were turned off by the women. Then when questioned a couple of them remarked "I don't think I could deal with the fact that I could see his reflection in the top of his head"and "I'm just not into baldies" to the hysterics of the all female audience. Honestly, try to even imagine if a the roles were reversed. Try to imagine if a guy said with a big smile on his face "I'm not sure if I could deal with the fact that I couldn't feel her t*ts are a bit saggy" or "I'm just not into <insert shortened slang word for women with small breasts?>". Every woman in the country would complain. Can any woman reading this honestly tell me that this isn't the case? There are so, so, so many double standards which women are just happy to overlook all of the time.

    Imagine how infuriated I feel when I hear things about how women don't put pressure on guys to look a certain way or that the media doesn't tell me a certain thing? I've spent time over the last few years on hair loss forums for obvious reasons. I know one guy who killed himself because of his hair loss and the associated depression because of how women treated him because of it. I think his suicide note may still be available online because his sister posted it thanking people for their support online as he had asked her to do in it. There are guys on these forums literally taking female hormones, ruining their health, growing breasts, everything just to keep their hair and even stand a chance with the women that they want to date. Mentally ill because of both the media and the opposite sexes perception of them for being bald. Grow your hair out...ugly. Shave your hair short...thug...and ugly. Yep there are men that get away with it or it can somehow just for their image if they are tall, have a good beard etc etc...then women maybe won't mind. But for a lot of guys it can kill their dating chances. Given what I just said about that guy, imagine how I feel when feminists on here and in the news happily and arrogantly state that the solution for male suicide's is more feminism, that it is simply because men can't talk about their feelings and that women face bigger issues. Not gonna lie, I've been suicidal myself at times... I won't do that but it has definitely given me major depression and I know personally many guys with body dysmorphia disorder because of current attitudes to balding in society. Something which itself is just a normal, healthy and genetic thing for about 30% of men by the age of 30 and 50% of men by the age of 50 caused by testosterone.

    Baldness is just one thing...but the worst probably by far...but again women will mock short guys or just tell them that they won't even be considered in a dating sense...the list can go on but it is nonsense to state that men don't have big pressures. If you're a woman you will always be able to get sex, you will always be able to get a date...it may not always be the guy that you always want but it is a hell of a lot easier.

    Honestly, I know for a fact that feminists just have absolutely no idea what men go through. They will mock and laugh at men insisting that men don't face discrimination anywhere near the level that they do...the supposed 'gender pay gap'. It's infuriating and it's bullsh*t.. I read feminist posts and the BBC sexism sites which basically insist that there is no discrimination towards men and I just feel like moving country..somewhere far away where I can just live in a forest away from everyone. The reality of the situation is too depressing.

    I realise that you probably had another point in there which I didn't address but I think I'll stop there before this essay continues.
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    Thought that may cause the debate to go a bit quiet....
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    Any of the females reaponding to this thread prepared to admit that they may have been wrong about certain points made?
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    (Original post by anna__)
    Given the fact that in my first month of living in Cologne I had 6 derogotary comments (at least) made towards me and was even grabbed, and invited back to a random mans house whilst sat on the tube minding my own business, I do not think its pointless. At all. We live in such a backwards society.
    That's a terrible example.

    Cologne is now full of second world low lifes

    You would have been fine before they let all the migrants in.
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    (Original post by Nidhoggr)
    That's a terrible example.

    Cologne is now full of second world low lifes

    You would have been fine before they let all the migrants in.
    so sexism is okay when its in a different country or if its done by migrants? but no one does it in their own country?
    Hahahah most of the comments have been made by German men
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    (Original post by anna__)
    so sexism is okay when its in a different country or if its done by migrants? but no one does it in their own country?
    Hahahah most of the comments have been made by German men
    Aggressive comments and definitely unwanted touching are not ok. I don't think anyone can claim that. I know Cologne has had a problem recently with immigrants although i find it a bit hard to believe that the incidents you mention were all from German men as I have been to Cologne many times in the last few years (carnival and otherwise) and it is generally a very friendly place.

    This debate is about feminism being 'useless' in the first world and while I think 'useless' is a strong word, everything I have read/learnt about feminism recently makes me tend to agree. Sure, we should be vigilant with issues affecting women and no woman should ever feel unsafe, but all we ever hear about are feminist groups campaigning for women's rights and nothing about men. Again today in the papers, I can point to two or three articles which directly to refer to feminism and some battle which basically doesn't even exist. Men's right activists are laughed at by society and the media yet feminists are given an audience whenever they want it.

    On this thread, I've yet to see one woman really be able to able to debate against anything I've said. After my last post it went completely quiet. Alternatively, on some other forums I have used recently, I saw men debating between each other and some admitting that they were wrong/changing their stance on issues. It was refreshing and mature but got me thinking that I can't imagine women doing that, particularly on the subject of feminism and men's rights. Or if it can happen I've not seen it yet. Same with the TV feminist/men's rights debates. The women usually just gang up on the men's rights activist and start talking over him/taking little digs about whether he has a wife or girlfriend to avoid listening to his points. It's all just made me even more aware that there is a genuine issue in our society where men's rights are literally laughed at/snubbed yet the feminism juggernaut continues to roll on without question. It is worrying.
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    We are at a point in history now where the average woman is at a significant advantage to the average man in life


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