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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    I think I came across that hadith in kafi in its arabic form and it says kurds.
    So qindh could be kurds.
    Will have to confirm though.
    Shia hadiths though are very difficult to get your head around though. I'm still looking into them.
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    Which modern country/place is Qindh?
    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    I think I came across that hadith in kafi in its arabic form and it says kurds.So qindh could be kurds.Will have to confirm though.Shia hadiths though are very difficult to get your head around though. I'm still looking into them.
    Qindh is Afghanistan.

    This is the narration about the Kurds:

    “Do not [even] buy anyone who is a Negro…never marry anyone of the Kurdish (people) for they are part of the Jinn (demons)…” (al-Kafi, fil Furoo’: Book of Nikah, Chapter: Whom Are Disliked for Marriage, Narration 2)
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    It's fascinating seeing Sunnis question Shia Hadiths just as others have treated their own questionable collection. It'll be even more interesting to see if such arguments follow the same convoluted pattern as that of defending things like Aisha's age, women's "deficiencies", Muhammad's slaves and countless other examples...
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
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    (Original post by Boondock Saint)
    “India, Sindh and Qindh–not a single one of them [from there] is intelligent.” (al-Kafi, fil Furoo’: Book of Nikah, Chapter: Whom Are Disliked for Marriage, Narration 3)
    Grading for this hadith: Dhai'f ala Mashoor. [Weak]



    (Original post by Boondock Saint)
    This is the narration about the Kurds:
    “Do not [even] buy anyone who is a Negro…never marry anyone of the Kurdish (people) for they are part of the Jinn (demons)…” (al-Kafi, fil Furoo’: Book of Nikah, Chapter: Whom Are Disliked for Marriage, Narration 2)
    Grading for this Hadith: This hadith does not have a connected chain, in shia terminology, it is regarded as Mursal.



    A few points to raise here[assuming the above two were reliable]:

    1. The mistranslation of 'Al Zanj to 'negroes'. Al Zanj does not translate to 'negroes', but rather, a group of people in a coastal town. ‘Beware of marrying (the people of) Al-Zanj i.e the people from that costal town.

    2. A number of the members of the Ahlulbayt of Rasulullah s.a.w and imams a.s we revere were actually born from black mothers, and hence mixed race themselves!

    3. A saheeh[or hasan] narration from Al Kafi clearly states:

    Kitab Al Kafi - H 2542, CH 119, h 2
    “The Messenger of Allah has said,Whoever practices racial discrimination or it is practiced for him has removed the collar of belief from his neck.


    For a proper understanding, here is the relevant article: http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/...ed-racist.html
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    .
    You are aware that according to some who follow your madhab, if you narrate from any companion of the prophet s.a.w, even if he is unknown, that hadith is taken, purely for the fact he is a companion ?

    Let me give you an example of a hadith graded saheeh by Al Albani:

    Narrated A man who heard the Prophet:
    Al-Muhallab ibn AbuSufrah said: A man who heard the Prophet (ﷺ) say: If the enemy attacks you at night, let your war cry be Ha-Mim. They will not be helped."

    And

    It was narrated from a man, from Jabir that the Messenger of Allah said:"It is not righteousness to fast when traveling."


    It was narrated from Al-Qasim bin Al-Mukhaimirah, from a man among the Companions of the Prophet, that the Prophet said:"Whoever kills a man from among Ahl Adh-Dhimmah.[2] he will not smell the fragrance of Paradise, and its fragrance may be detected from a distance of seventy years."









    In response to your questions, i could justly ask, who is this man? How do we know he is reliable ? Is he reliable simply because he heard and saw the prophet? Is this a criteria of trustworthiness and piety - to have merely heard the prophet s.a.w say something? Was every single person who merely heard the prophet s.a.w say something considered to be free of all lies and falsehood?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Grading for this hadith: Dhai'f ala Mashoor. [Weak]


    What does mashoor mean?






    Grading for this Hadith
    : This hadith does not have a connected chain, in shia terminology, it is regarded as Mursal.


    A hadith being mursal is a fair point



    A few points to raise here[assuming the above two were reliable]:

    1. The mistranslation of 'Al Zanj to 'negroes'. Al Zanj does not translate to 'negroes', but rather, a group of people in a coastal town. ‘Beware of marrying (the people of) Al-Zanj i.e the people from that costal town.
    Tawheed this kind of gets into silly territory since none of what you say here is correct. Anyone who speaks arabic, and classical arabic knows what زنج zanj means, and it certainly is not confined to ''inhabitants of a coastal town''

    2. A number of the members of the Ahlulbayt of Rasulullah s.a.w and imams a.s we revere were actually born from black mothers, and hence mixed race themselves!
    Who were those imams?
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    What does mashoor mean?
    Mashhoor is Arabic for famous. But even if the hadith is popular it doesn't make it authentic.
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    (Original post by Gray Fox)
    Mashhoor is Arabic for famous. But even if the hadith is popular it doesn't make it authentic.
    Yea makes more sense that it is mash'hoor, coz I was scratching my head thing what مشور mashoor is in terms of hadith!
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Salamunalaikum, i hope you are doing well brother



    With due respect, he didn't. And i am only quoting you because i prefer everyone to have facts. If we disagree on the facts, and have each of our positions fairly represented, then that's fine. But when it's really on a straw man, it becomes unfair. To add to this, what was done was really an unprovoked attack. I posted a hadith on good manners, giving the chain, and someone decides to create a debate out of nothing.
    It is quite disappointing Tahweed that you take a genuine question (remember that you were talking about hadiths and authenticity accor to shia school) as an attack.
    I don't know if it shows shakiness of grounds, or lack of hussnozan (or both) to take everything as an attack.
    This kind of stance doesn't help us in any way brother.
    Ps I moved this quote here to not derail the soc thread.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    Yea makes more sense that it is mash'hoor, coz I was scratching my head thing what مشور mashoor is in terms of hadith!
    Apologies, that was a typing error on my part. I read mashoor as - mash hoor, but didn't add the double h's.

    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    It is quite disappointing Tahweed that you take a genuine question (remember that you were talking about hadiths and authenticity accor to shia school) as an attack.
    I don't know if it shows shakiness of grounds, or lack of hussnozan (or both) to take everything as an attack.
    This kind of stance doesn't help us in any way brother.
    Ps I moved this quote here to not derail the soc thread.
    It's just not when and what you asked, but how you asked it.

    Again, i posted a hadith that was about good manners. The better thing to do would have been to ask , on this thread, 'what does a group of our associates mean', rather than rebuking me and mocking me for bringing up rijal, under the false pretexts we take chains from randomers etc.

    Either way, let us not argue about arguing.

    You know full well you are welcome to ask questions. But it depends on where, how, and with what.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
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    Salaam

    Obviously I won't pressure you to answer my questions I asked earlier in the thread, but do you still intend to answer them? If you are busy with studies etc and would rather leave them, I do not mind if you completely free yourself of the obligation rather than perhaps incurring sin for not fulfilling a promise.

    On a side note, I have smaller questions which you could answer quickly InshaAllah:

    What books/works do you use to grade the authenticity of Shia hadith?
    And are these available in English?
    Has the whole of Al-Kafi been graded yet?

    BarakAllahu feek
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Apologies, that was a typing error on my part. I read mashoor as - mash hoor, but didn't add the double h's.



    It's just not when and what you asked, but how you asked it.

    Again, i posted a hadith that was about good manners. The better thing to do would have been to ask , on this thread, 'what does a group of our associates mean', rather than rebuking me and mocking me for bringing up rijal, under the false pretexts we take chains from randomers etc.

    Either way, let us not argue about arguing.

    You know full well you are welcome to ask questions. But it depends on where, how, and with what.
    Well tawheed I do apologise if you took as an attack.
    But I assure you it was nothing but a question. Since the attribution to our associates got me thinking.
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    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    Salaam

    Obviously I won't pressure you to answer my questions I asked earlier in the thread, but do you still intend to answer them? If you are busy with studies etc and would rather leave them, I do not mind if you completely free yourself of the obligation rather than perhaps incurring sin for not fulfilling a promise.
    I definitely intend to answer them, inshAllah. With your question, i want to do background research into a few sunni lectures and principles, because i believe that post about the attributes of Allah azwj may not be concordant with the official position.

    The reason why i have answered a few of the others first, is either due to the time i.e the usual slanders about muharram [or genuine questions too i admit], or people quoting me, unprovoked, on the I-Soc, attacking shia islam in a way that does not give a cogent argument, but just spreads factual misinformation. Given the 'likes' such posts get, it is clear few do research.

    On a side note, I have smaller questions which you could answer quickly InshaAllah:

    What books/works do you use to grade the authenticity of Shia hadith?
    And are these available in English?
    Has the whole of Al-Kafi been graded yet?

    BarakAllahu feek
    They aren't available in English, but are available in Arabic. And the entire Al Kafi has been graded by multiple people, and entire commentaries written on it.

    There's the ar rijal by Ayatullah Khoei, may Allah have mercy on him, for example.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    You are aware that according to some who follow your madhab, if you narrate from any companion of the prophet s.a.w, even if he is unknown, that hadith is taken, purely for the fact he is a companion ?

    Let me give you an example of a hadith graded saheeh by Al Albani:

    Narrated A man who heard the Prophet:
    Al-Muhallab ibn AbuSufrah said: A man who heard the Prophet (ﷺ) say: If the enemy attacks you at night, let your war cry be Ha-Mim. They will not be helped."

    And

    It was narrated from a man, from Jabir that the Messenger of Allah said:"It is not righteousness to fast when traveling."


    It was narrated from Al-Qasim bin Al-Mukhaimirah, from a man among the Companions of the Prophet, that the Prophet said:"Whoever kills a man from among Ahl Adh-Dhimmah.[2] he will not smell the fragrance of Paradise, and its fragrance may be detected from a distance of seventy years."









    In response to your questions, i could justly ask, who is this man? How do we know he is reliable ? Is he reliable simply because he heard and saw the prophet? Is this a criteria of trustworthiness and piety - to have merely heard the prophet s.a.w say something? Was every single person who merely heard the prophet s.a.w say something considered to be free of all lies and falsehood?
    The thing is that with the hadiths you quoted, they have other shawahid narrations that come with a full strong isnaad.
    So they do not stand on their own weight but in conjunction with other narrations hence why they have been viewed authentic.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    The reason why i have answered a few of the others first, is either due to the time i.e the usual slanders about muharram [or genuine questions too i admit], or people quoting me, unprovoked, on the I-Soc, attacking shia islam in a way that does not give a cogent argument, but just spreads factual misinformation. Given the 'likes' such posts get, it is clear few do research.

    Hello Tawheed, I'm glad you raised this topic of slanders or unprovoked attacks on the ISOC. But I think you're being a bit dishonest here. You have your fair share of slander and unprovoked attacks.

    I recall just the other day, when me and an athiest user were discussing dictatorships, Khalifas and democracy, you chimed in randomly midconvo and quoted Epicurean with "Al Nusra loves democracy". Now clearly this was a dig against me because I don't support democracy in Muslim countries such as Syria. So surely you can't moan about being a victim when you yourself slyly imply other ISOC users of being Al Qaeda supporters.


    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Al Nusra love democracy.
    If you want to save time and answer more questions on here, don't engage in things like that on the ISOC. Genuine advice. Sure you can argue it's only 4 words but that was after you edited it. Your original post was actually far longer (and you were actually attacking 3-4 users in the original!). http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...3#post68079692

    Anyway good day and please less of the hypocrisy and the self perceived victimhood.
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
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    Allah will judge between us. I refer it to him. And he is the best of judges. I'm prepared to fully accept his judgement.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Allah will judge between us. I refer it to him. And he is the best of judges. I'm prepared to fully accept his judgement.
    That is true, we'll receive our Lord's judgement. But for now, I will judge everyone by the apparent (their actions in public).

    Abdullah ibn Utbah reported: I heard Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, say, “Verily, in the time of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, the people would be judged by revelation, but the revelation has ended. Now we judge you according to your outward deeds. Whoever shows us good, we will trust him and favor him and it is not for us to judge his inner secrets, for Allah will hold him accountable for those. Whoever shows us evil, then we will not trust him or believe in him even if he claims his intention is good.”Source: Sahih Bukhari 2498

    Good day. I don't want to derail this thread too much.
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    That is true, we'll receive our Lord's judgement. But for now, I will judge everyone by the apparent (their actions in public).

    Abdullah ibn Utbah reported: I heard Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, say, “Verily, in the time of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, the people would be judged by revelation, but the revelation has ended. Now we judge you according to your outward deeds. Whoever shows us good, we will trust him and favor him and it is not for us to judge his inner secrets, for Allah will hold him accountable for those. Whoever shows us evil, then we will not trust him or believe in him even if he claims his intention is good.”Source: Sahih Bukhari 2498


    Walaykumsalam brother. I have forgiven you on my part for offence i feel was directed at me. But as for the rest, it will be on Allah azwj to judge between us. If i am wrong may he guide me, and if you are wrong, may he guide you. And if we are both wrong, may he guide us both.


    Good day. I don't want to derail this thread too much.
    i appreciate this, thank you brother.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    This is the thread to use for debates brother.

    Could you explain to me:

    1. Is the belief of Allah azwj having a 'foot' or 'feet' and putting it into 'hell' solely believed by salafi's? If not, is it by some groups of them and not others?

    2. Could you give me rough percentages, numbers and name the groups?

    I'm quite curious, because i'm pretty sure a number of I-Soc users who i debate on here affirm and believe in that. While some do not. Though, it would be incorrect to deem this representative with regards to the general population.

    I am aware of the other interpretation of the ahadith, given by ashari's. But i've seen salafi's vehemently argue it is against the clear translation and meaning.

    Lastly, why don't you believe Allah azwj has a foot, and will put it into hell ? What do you feel this belief entails?
    Most Muslims have always been Ashari or Maturidi in creed (it's been that way for over a thousand years) and the position of both of those schools is that Allah does not have a body and any reference that may lead one to think otherwise, whether it be in the Qur'an or in the Hadith, is undoubtedly metaphorical. You also have a third school which is known to be the simplest of them all and that's the Athari creed. Everyone accepts the Athari creed as valid and acceptable to follow (Asharis, Maturidis and Salafis) but the two former schools differ with the Salafi commentaries given to it. Essentially, the Asharis and Maturidis accuse the Salafis of giving the Athari creed an anthropomorphic commentary that did not exist with early Atharis, and it's only the Salafi inclined Atharis that believe Allah has a body (albeit not like ours and without going into how).
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    (Original post by Boondock Saint)
    Most Muslims have always been Ashari or Maturidi in creed (it's been that way for over a thousand years) and the position of both of those schools is that Allah does not have a body and any reference that my lead one to think otherwise, whether it be in the Qur'an or in the Hadith, is undoubtedly metaphorical. You also have a third school which is known to be the simplest of them all and that's the Athari creed. Everyone accepts the Athari creed as valid and acceptable to follow (Asharis, Maturidis and Salafis) but the two former schools differ with the Salafi commentaries given to it. Essentially, the Asharis and Maturidis accuse the Salafis of giving the Athari creed an anthropomorphic commentary that did not exist with early Atharis, and it's only the Salafi inclined Atharis that believe Allah has a body (albeit not like ours and without going into how).
    I'm very impressed with this.

    How do you approach the salafi's who say 'but we only affirm what is in the Quran and Hadith, without putting in our own understanding' ?

    Islamqa , which promotes these ideas, seems to be very popular. How would you educate sunni's to turn away from the salafi position and embrace the more correct one?
 
 
 
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