Part c (ii) You should have found out K.E = h^2/(2m lambda^2) in part one. Then equating kq^2/r^2 (for hydrogen, or equivalent if you are doing for some other atoms) to mv^2/r and then writing 2 K.E for mv^2 should give you h^2/(m lambda^2) = kq^2/r with very little algebra.(Original post by rohan.nuck)
http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/olympiad...r3_2005_QP.pdf
Question 2 Part (c) i don't get how the pressure is related to L. I can derive something in terms of x but it doesn't seem right
Question 3 part b(iii) am i just supposed to replace Mp by Mp+Mass of neutron ?
Part (c) ii) beats me
Question 4 b) ii) i'm not exactly sure about how to relate y to the intensity. I tried considering a small thickness delta y but it gets complex really fast
EDIT: I think i was just being dumb on 4 b) ii), I think i should just be able to consider a differential element dx and use 4 a) to solve the differential equation i get and 4b) i) for the limits of the differential equation. I'm assuming that the question wants me to find the intensity only at a height y and not the intensity from 0 to y.
If anyone looks at this and gets scared of pat for some reason : This is way harder than the Pat don't worry
Now for modelling a discrete energy system, you could set that r can only take certain values (n times something with dimension of length where n is positive integer) and nothing between. Then find energy level for corresponding values of n. Hurray!!
If you have studied Bohr's model of atom, at some point he says that r can take only those values such that angular momentum (mvr) of electrons is an integer multiple of nh/2pi.
Hope this helps.
You are Here:
Home
> Forums
>< Study Help
>< Maths, science and technology academic help
>< Physics
>< Physics Exams

Oxford PAT 2016
Announcements  Posted on  

How helpful is our apprenticeship zone? Have your say with our short survey  02122016 

 Follow
 361
 31082016 23:21

 Follow
 362
 01092016 12:02
Does anyone know a website that explains electron spin at a higher level and in a comprehensible way?

 Follow
 363
 01092016 12:28
(Original post by lawlieto)
Does anyone know a website that explains electron spin at a higher level and in a comprehensible way? 
 Follow
 364
 01092016 12:54
(Original post by lawlieto)
Does anyone know a website that explains electron spin at a higher level and in a comprehensible way?(Original post by tangotangopapa2)
Are you looking for an explanation based on Schrodinger's equation?
Some of the answers given in the page might interest you. 
 Follow
 365
 01092016 13:25
(Original post by tangotangopapa2)
Part c (ii) You should have found out K.E = h^2/(2m lambda^2) in part one. Then equating kq^2/r^2 (for hydrogen, or equivalent if you are doing for some other atoms) to mv^2/r and then writing 2 K.E for mv^2 should give you h^2/(m lambda^2) = kq^2/r with very little algebra.
Now for modelling a discrete energy system, you could set that r can only take certain values (n times something with dimension of length where n is positive integer) and nothing between. Then find energy level for corresponding values of n. Hurray!!
If you have studied Bohr's model of atom, at some point he says that r can take only those values such that angular momentum (mvr) of electrons is an integer multiple of nh/2pi.
Hope this helps.
h^2/(m lambda^2) = kq^2/r part but i couldnt figure out how to use this to show discrete values.
I didnt study that xD i looked up angular momentum and i got it now thanks but would you happen to know why it should be an integer multiple of nh/2pi ? the only thing i could find is something about standing waves
Is it something like quantisation of charge but in this case its quantisation of angular momentum ?
EDIT: Ok i got it : Basically the wave of the electron will interfere with itself and thus if we need it exist we need constructive interference. so 2pi*r=nlambda and from there we can show discrete energy levels with some algebra. ( i think xD) another way to think of this is, if the wave of the electron does not produce a standing wave, then it implies the position of the wave moves and the electron moves, but in the paragraph we are told that accelerating charged particles release energy ( and this is a problem ) so the only way a wave would work was if it was a standing wave. I think im all cleared now
ThanksLast edited by rohan.nuck; 01092016 at 13:34. 
 Follow
 366
 01092016 13:40
(Original post by tangotangopapa2)
I got T = 2pi sqrt( mp X me / k(mp + me)) and f = 1/T. So, you could replace mp by (mp + mn).
How did you get this answer though ( my method seemed a bit sneaky, i basically got two expressions for the acceleration of each mass, then i used some sort of subsitution to solve it, is there a more general way to solve this ?) 
 Follow
 367
 01092016 14:21
(Original post by rohan.nuck)
We got the same thing gr8!
How did you get this answer though ( my method seemed a bit sneaky, i basically got two expressions for the acceleration of each mass, then i used some sort of subsitution to solve it, is there a more general way to solve this ?)
Firstly, I assumed stationary point to be at distance x from proton. Then two lengths are x and (lx) respectively. Then I found corresponding value of k for each. (For given material of constant cross  sectional area k is inversely proportional to length). Using this information I found k for corresponding bits to be kl/x and kl/(xl) respectively. I then plugged in those ks in equation for time for both proton and electron and equated to find x = {me/(mp + me)}l. Then using that value of x in kl/x I found required answer.
edit: Finding acceleration and using Newton's laws is the standard way of doing this by using first principle. So, I think your method should be more general way of solving this.Last edited by tangotangopapa2; 01092016 at 14:36. 
 Follow
 368
 01092016 14:24
(Original post by rohan.nuck)
Yep i got to the
h^2/(m lambda^2) = kq^2/r part but i couldnt figure out how to use this to show discrete values.
I didnt study that xD i looked up angular momentum and i got it now thanks but would you happen to know why it should be an integer multiple of nh/2pi ? the only thing i could find is something about standing waves
Is it something like quantisation of charge but in this case its quantisation of angular momentum ?
EDIT: Ok i got it : Basically the wave of the electron will interfere with itself and thus if we need it exist we need constructive interference. so 2pi*r=nlambda and from there we can show discrete energy levels with some algebra. ( i think xD) another way to think of this is, if the wave of the electron does not produce a standing wave, then it implies the position of the wave moves and the electron moves, but in the paragraph we are told that accelerating charged particles release energy ( and this is a problem ) so the only way a wave would work was if it was a standing wave. I think im all cleared now
ThanksPost rating:1 
 Follow
 369
 01092016 14:24
(Original post by tangotangopapa2)
I did a little bit of cheating . I can find by first principle (which I didn't do in order to save time), T=2pi sqrt (m/k).
Firstly, I assumed stationary point to be at distance x from proton. Then two lengths are x and (lx) respectively. Then I found corresponding value of k for each. (For given material of constant cross  sectional area k is inversely proportional to length). Using this information I found k for corresponding bits to be kl/x and kl/(xl) respectively. I then plugged in those ks in equation for time for both proton and electron and equated to find x = {me/(mp + me)}l. Then using that value of x in kl/x I found required answer.(Original post by rohan.nuck)
We got the same thing gr8!
How did you get this answer though ( my method seemed a bit sneaky, i basically got two expressions for the acceleration of each mass, then i used some sort of subsitution to solve it, is there a more general way to solve this ?) 
 Follow
 370
 01092016 14:25
Hey guys what is the reference letter supposed to have in it? My teacher said I can give her points to focus on
Last edited by NatoHeadshot; 01092016 at 14:27. 
 Follow
 371
 01092016 14:27
(Original post by hellomynameisr)
How are you guys doing these kind of questions?! I literally have no idea what that is 
 Follow
 372
 01092016 14:32
(Original post by hellomynameisr)
How are you guys doing these kind of questions?! I literally have no idea what that is
(Original post by NatoHeadshot)
Same what topic even is it xD 
 Follow
 373
 01092016 14:33
(Original post by tangotangopapa2)
I happened to solve this question by chance. I can't solve almost 80% of the question in that paper. Anyway you solve these kinds of problems in M3 (springs/ SHM or something equivalent) 
 Follow
 374
 01092016 14:38
(Original post by hellomynameisr)
So we shouldn't worry about that for the PAT?
Not to scare you but the following two concepts are frequently required in PAT.
Spring constant k, is inversely proportional to length and T = 2pi sqrt (m/k). 
 Follow
 375
 01092016 14:44
(Original post by tangotangopapa2)
Obviously, you shouldn't worry about the question
Not to scare you but the following two concepts are frequently required in PAT.
Spring constant k, is inversely proportional to length and T = 2pi sqrt (m/k). 
 Follow
 376
 01092016 14:46
(Original post by hellomynameisr)
What is the T = 2pi sqrt (m/k) formula for and what section of an a2 physics book can i find it in? 
 Follow
 377
 01092016 14:48
(Original post by hellomynameisr)
What is the T = 2pi sqrt (m/k) formula for and what section of an a2 physics book can i find it in? 
 Follow
 378
 01092016 14:49
(Original post by rohan.nuck)
Look up simple harmonic motion(Original post by tangotangopapa2)
You can find that in Oscillations/ SHM section and massspring system subsection of your physics book. It is to find out time period of oscillations of mass attached to spring. 
 Follow
 379
 01092016 14:50
(Original post by tangotangopapa2)
I did a little bit of cheating . I can find by first principle (which I didn't do in order to save time), T=2pi sqrt (m/k).
Firstly, I assumed stationary point to be at distance x from proton. Then two lengths are x and (lx) respectively. Then I found corresponding value of k for each. (For given material of constant cross  sectional area k is inversely proportional to length). Using this information I found k for corresponding bits to be kl/x and kl/(xl) respectively. I then plugged in those ks in equation for time for both proton and electron and equated to find x = {me/(mp + me)}l. Then using that value of x in kl/x I found required answer.
edit: Finding acceleration and using Newton's laws is the standard way of doing this by using first principle. So, I think your method should be more general way of solving this.
I like your 'cheating' though, its an interesting way of looking at this problem 
 Follow
 380
 01092016 14:54
(Original post by NatoHeadshot)
Hey guys what is the reference letter supposed to have in it? My teacher said I can give her points to focus on
That you work hard
that you can think/ ie ur smart xD
then the regular polite, kind, shows respect etc ( not very important )
generally it would be good if your teacher could give examples/ anecdotes
I don't even think the letters are that important though ( as long as they don't give any reason to why they SHOULD NOT admit you )
Write a reply…
Reply
Submit reply
Register
Thanks for posting! You just need to create an account in order to submit the post Already a member? Sign in
Oops, something wasn't right
please check the following:
Sign in
Not got an account? Sign up now
Updated: December 4, 2016
Share this discussion:
Tweet
Related discussions:
 2016 Physics Applicants
 Pat 2016 Discussion
 PAT 2016 Thoughts
 Oxford Reach Scholarship for 2016 entry
 Oxford PAT 2015
 The Oxford TSA thread  2016 applicants  4th November ...
 The Oxford Offer Holders Thread: 2016 Entry
 Oxford Offer Holders (2016 Entry)
 Oxford Applicants Stalking Page 2016 Entry
 An "I got into Oxford with these grades" thread
TSR Support Team
We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.